1965 2000 will not start... - Engine will not start

G

Gary

New Member
Hi

I am having difficulty in getting the car to start and am wondering if anybody has an ideas: -

I had removed the head to re-set the tappet clearances, fitted new exhaust valves, lapped these in, cleaned up the inlets and generally cleaned up the head & piston crowns.

All re-assembled and great care was taken to ensure that the iginition timing was correctly set up.

When all was re-assembled the car would not start!

Engine turns over, each spark plug produces a spark, fuel is getting through to the carb (fresh fuel) but the engine will not fire.

As part of the engine overhaul the following parts were renewed as a matter of course: spark plugs, distributor cap, rotor arm, coil, HT leads, starter solenoid and Aldon Automative electronic ignition (for postive earth). Before I installed these parts I tried to start the car with the original components - which were fine before I took the engine apart.

So, when the car did not start, I checked all the electrical connections and voltage readings were all ok to the control box, fuses, starter solenoid, starter & from ignition switch, ALL seemed OK... Battery is about 2 years old and is fully charged.

I checked the conpressions, these were all fairly even at around 150 psi, which compared to the workshop manual figure of 160 psi, which I do not think is not too bad for a 40 year old engine.

I have not been able to check the strength of the spark, but these are all consistent and I am not sure what else I could do if these was weak.

Fuel is fresh - old fuel was drained off and replenished just to ensure that this had not gone stale.

The last thing I have done is to re-set the carb on its initial setting, which is not far from where it started.

I do not know what else I can do, everything seems to be doing what it should.

Finally, yesterday, I re-checked the timing, with the engine locked in its EP position with the number 1 exhaust valve fully open, all lined up perfectly (I don't think you can get this wrong). I removed the distributor, checked that this was all correct, not 180 degree out and all seems to be ok. Timing is set at 4 degrees BTDC. Have tried at 6 & at TDC, also to deliberately put the ignition 180 degree out, but nothing, not even a hint of ignition.

Between each time of trying, the plugs have been dried (allowed to cook in the sun) & I have swopped these over, I have substituted the coil, the rotor arm, the distributor cap & HT lead, & reverted to a points set up just in case the old components and the replacements have been defective, but to no avail.

If you are still with me (& I hope you are) I am now at a loss of what to do or check next - any ideas anyone?

I look forward to your posts.

Many thanks

Gary
 
hi gary
you seem to have almost everything covered
i think the clue is in the fact that the plugs are still dry after constant cranking
you seem to have spark and commpresion so valve and ignition timming should be ok
has the car not been used for some time?
you say you have changed the petrol but has it reached the carb.
the fact that the plugs are still dry worries me
it sound like fuel is not passing through the carb
check the dash pot is lifting and that the needle has not droped
check that the float chamber is full of fresh fuel and that the float chamber vent is not blocked( this will depend on which carb type you have fitted)
i would try a little fresh petrol in the bores and crank it over
make sure it is a small amount though and she should burst into life.
this will at least prove if the timming/spark/firing order/commpression etc is ok
nick
 
Hmmm, not sure I've got much to add either, as suggested I would pour a little fuel either direct into the pots, or into the carb.

One thing I had trouble with once was when I had used new gaskets on the inlet, (not a p6), and the gasket I had used didn't have the correct holes punched in it, this prevent some air flow to the carb and hence stopped the carb piston lifting.

Just to clarify, have you checked that the rotor arm is pointing to the correct plug at the right time, in time with the inlet valve closing. I bought a re-con engine once which had the dizzy drive installed wrong and I had to re-arrange the plug leads to make it run, I had to watch the valves open and close to get the correct firing order on the cap.

Richard
 
Thanks guys, the spark plugs were dried as these were wet with petrol, so the fuel is reaching the combustion chamber - sorry on re-reading the post it was not as clear as it could have been!

I will try popping a drop of fuel down each spark plug hole & I will check that each inlet valve closing corresponds to the rotor arm position to determine the correctness of the firing order.

At least I have something further to check!

I will let you know how I get on.

Thanks

Gary
 
This may sound ike a piss take but are you sure the dizzy is on the right way round?
I know you said you had checked the timing but I had a similar problem years ago on a xk150, 3 of use spent days looking at it, much drinking of tea and scratching of heads etc, then someone walked in (Tony Muva Rootes big gm and funny car engine builder) look a look and pronounced we had the timing 180 degrees out :( 3 minutes of work and the car fired up and ran perfectly. aparantly he only knew because he had seen it happen before.
 
I was told a newly rebuilt engine is somtimes hard to start because of the lack of a carbon layer on the pistons. Once it's run , it will be OK
Try squirting some Easy Start down the air intake and see if it goes.
Or put jump leads on it and see if it picks up when cranked furiously
Or try heating up the spark plugs with a blow lamp before fitting them. That might stop them fouling long enough for it to start
Good luck
Dave
 
Thanks for the replies - been spending time over the weekend trying to resolve the problems.

Went back to basics, checked the camshaft/EP for No.1, all line up perfectly, checked the dizzy, all timed correctly & verified by watching the valves opening & closing (had a friend assist - just in case I was missing the bleedin obvious), re-set the static timing and all was as it should be.

Even change the dizzy for a spare, just in case..., but everything was as before, i.e. spark at each plug.

I think the ignition side is all ok.

I then put neat petrol down the bores & tried again - nothing, not even an attempt at firing.

I put the plugs in the oven forhalf an hour so that these were nice & hot, still nothing.

I removed the carb., took off the cover to the inlet manifold, no obstructions or anything wrong. Petrol has been passing through the carb. and unless the carb. is so worn & has a massive air leak to seriously weaken the mixture - I could not tell if this was the case as it all seemed ok, & worked fine when the engine last ran.

So I am at a loss with what to do next, the battery is fully charged, the engine spins over quickly, the ignition side is all new, static timing seems satisfactory,I also fitted a new air-filter, just in case the other (also new) was defective.

I may need to call in the services of a mobile diagnostic mechanic to see if he can identify the problem - anyone know of a good one in Brighton, East Sussex area?

Well thanks again everyone for all the input - will update on progress.

Regards

Gary
 
Garry if she has compression and dont fire with a bit petrol in the bore it has to be a spark problem. when you check the points are firing for plug 1 - take the top cover of the engine and make sure both valves are shut.
if still not sure try the turn the dizzy round 180 degrees - you never know!
We are all assuming the petrol is fairly new.


Take a different look at the problem - years ago we could not get a dolly to restart after a head job - she did run on "easy start" - eventually we found the inlet manifold (lying on my back in frustration looking up at the engine!) had not gone back on correctly and she was drawing air.. this happened because in the past someone had left a nut off which as we did not have to replace it we did not notich the stud jamming out side its bracket. Not sure if this can happen with a P6 but is worth having a look with a fresh pair of eyes! -

good luck! :O
 
Thanks, petrol is only about two weeks old - I drained all the old stuff out & replenished with new (the old went into the Range Rover & was fine) so the petrol is nice & fresh.

I did try starting the engine with 180 degrees out, & 90 & 270, just in case something odd was going on.

The head can only go on one way and the inlet manifold was un-disturbed until yesterday. I have not tried blanking off the servo hose, but this all looks ok & was not a problem previously.

Had a similar problem with the Range Rover - everything was all doing as it should - half an hour of continuous cranking (by the recovery guy) and it eventually burst into life, not sure what the long term damage to the starter motor, etc., will be (don't care its being sold very soon, once the P6 starts) but I do not want to subject the P6 to that level of stress.

Thanks again for the replies.

Regards

Gary
 
Now this has not happened to me with a Rover, but with a Mazda I once owned....checked everything, VERY frustrated.
It turned out the distributer rotor was shorted and producing a very weak spark. So having spark is not enough....You might want to see how good the spark is. Maybe coil, or rotor.
Hope this helps.
Dick West
 
Thanks Dick, I have fitted a new rotor arm (genuine old stock), plus I tried the old one, and a spare one so hopefully not got three duff rotor arms.

I agree with you just because I have got a spark it does not mean that it is strong enough - I don't know how I can test its strength, or what else I can do to improve the spark - new ht leads, new spark plugs, new coil, electronic ignition module, distibutor cap have all been fitted.

Thanks for post - appreciated - hopefully we will get it cracked.

Gary
 
Gary,
you can (still, I hope!) purchase an HT tester - Mine is Mobelec - The tool consists of two arms that you plug in to a sparg plug cap and hold on to an earth and , with the engine cranking over, widen the two arms which in turn widens the spark gap until the spark starts to break-down. This gives you a reading of voltage or gap or good-bad or average! Mine cost me £1.50 many years ago but I have seen them in motor accessopry shops in the last year or two!
This may help, I hope.
Regards, John.
 
I think Dave may have hit the nail right on the head (as it were)!!

I personally dont think that the problem is electrical as it ran beforehand.

When I was serving my apprenticeship, I stripped an Astra and replaced the rings, shells and big ends. Whilst my back was turned, a friend of mine (who was supposedly helping) cleaned the tops of each piston and polished them up.

Upon trying to start the car - the same thing happened. Dont ask me why - I know the pistons aren't manufactured with carbon, but this is a DEFINATE no no with used parts - take it from me. I had stripped about five and done the same job with sucess each time - but the lack of carbon knackered me right up!

The only way to solve the problem was to tow it until it EVENTUALLY ran (of a fashion) and then continue to run it on full choke for a good while!! ???

I would pour a little engine oil down each bore to help compression (I know you say all is well but you need all you can get) - and then 'drag it down the road' in second with the ignition on (assuming it is a manual).

Many head jobs I have done as a mechanic (ooh errr - I mean cylinder head jobs) needed a tow start and I think this is your best bet before you pay someone to have a look.

I agree with the easy start but it is a very volatile substance and I would be very careful.

Also, have you tried new plugs? Again, bear with me - strange but true.

I once owned a 2.9 Scorpio. Ran fine until I left it whilst we went on holiday for two weeks. Upon return, it would not fire. I tried everything. Air fuel meter, potentiometer, sender unit - you name it. A fellow mechanic at the time suggested that the plugs were at fault. WHAT?!

......in desperation, I bought a new set and it fired first turn of the key!!

On my daughters life - the plugs LOOKED perfectly serviceable, but it cured the problem!

Good luck. :(
 
Jonny was reading my mind! I was going to add its its a manual fire some oil in the bores and tow it for a few miles, slowly in gear, then try to fire it up on the move -
 
Thanks guys, with regard to the HT test, I have one of these, bought it years ago, (Gunsons),never used or been out of packet - I had it in my mind that this would only be any good with the engine running so did not bother to use this - will use this at the weekend.

Tried to start the car this afternoon - got the plugs really hot, but still no joy, although when the starter was release & ignition turned off the engine gave a little kick as if it was about to start... Did this a number of times, but did not start, guess this was burning off the excess petrol.

I might be able to drag the car out on the road (behind the Range Rover) at the weekend as suggested, if I can do this I wil let you know the outcome.

Thanks again for all the input.

Regards

Gary
 
Sorry guys, I have hardly had a moment to log onto to the forum and post an update, I have been very busy of late - well the car has started, been MoT'd, new road tax and pressed into every day use as my main car.

In the end a friend's mechanic offered to take a look and within minutes of investigation had identified the problem - it was a timing related issue after all.

Setting the engine to its static setting, the rotor arm, whilst it appeared to be pointing at Number 4, was in fact a few degrees short - this was not obvious when comparing the position with the distributor cap removed, but to an experienced mechanic it was obvious.

I think what had happened was in the setting of the static timing using a voltmeter, the rotor arm was probably earthing on Number 3 at its tail end giving a misleading (completely!) setting.

Once the rotor arm position was re-set to its approximate position in line with the segment on the distributor cap, the engine fired finally fired up.

The engine was adjusted using a strobe light and I have to say is very smooth & quiet - better than I had hoped for.

So there we have it - a timing problem all along - with hindsight I should have transfered the position of the cap segments on to the dizzy body - had I done this it would have been obvious but not when comparing the positions with the cap off.

After much frustration all has ended well.

So thanks for all the help & interest.

Gary
 
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