1966? I dont think so!!

It's a really difficult situation to judge.

What will internal combustion engined (I understand it's ICE now) cars be worth in a few decades time? It's anybody's guess.

I know numerous 'collectors/enthusiasts' who all make similar comments, namely that large numbers of the 'younger generation', including immediate family, simply aren't interested, in any way, in these enthusiasts' old cars - especially those from the 1920s - 1950s. The variety of models is wide, covering most British 'brands' (didn't we used to call them 'Makes', or 'Marques'?) including Aston Martin. Cars from the 1990s? - more interest shown. Without doubt, the march of electric is speeding up and what impact that will have, who knows and whilst twenty years seems a long way off, twenty years ago doesn't actally seem that long ago, does it!

Nothing to do with the subject of this thread though :)
 
"Without doubt, the march of electric is speeding up"

Agreed, but do I want one of these soul-less piles of junk who's energy source will plunder our earth whilst creating vast caverns and open mining holes the size of a small Country? Not b....y likely !
 

Hobby

Active Member
It's interesting that the assumption that if the car is ultra rare it will automatically commend a high value. That is not the case, the car still has to have some reason for commanding that high price, rarity does not automatically mean that will be the case. There are plenty of models around where there are fewer left in existence than, say, an E type, but they are not worth more than an E type or even as much. Where the P6 falls in that regard I am not sure, they are a nice looking car, certainly, and have a certain kudos as being the first winner of the Car of the Year, but whether that makes them as collectable as the E type for future investment I am not convinced. However as the car becomes rarer (and older) the cost of spares will rise, unless for some reason there's a glut of them already. As for that car if I were a collector I'd prefer originality over a restoration if I were to pay a high price, same as buying an unopened "boxed" model railway locomotive rather than a used one.




As for whether I'd accept 75k for my car, as it won't happen it's not really worth even answering the question sensibly. However if I was about to move house then yes I would... Everyone has a price... ;)
 
Someone mentioned the value of the car being realistic unless completely original. That's contradictory for a few reasons which I'll state below.

1. Rover picked bare base-units off the production lines. If you think your car can rot, then multiply that by ten. They had no serious coating or protection applied as they weren't meant to last, and frankly Rover couldn't be bothered as there was hardly anyone pushing for a warranty claim.
2. Prototypes are test mules for a varying amount of equipment. The specification changed continuously, which begs the question, what is original? Because if I had to built this as April 1st, 1966 it would be a different car. Had I built it as November 1967, it's what it is today. Had I built it as November 1970, it would again be completely different. Things changed.

Wouldn't the early P6B pre-production mules, or whatever you want to call them, have had the original base units without the inner wing cut outs?

Yes and no, technically. They all had/have modified slam panels. 813 and 818 are modified. All the others are standard 2000 as far as I know and I have seen my fair share in the BMIHT archives, pictures which I unfortunately cannot share as I'd infringe their copyright. However, there's a picture in James Taylor's book. The inner wing cut-outs on production cars were developed somewhere, because during testing they found out there was a need for these to place ancillaries and move the servo from above the exhaust manifold to the cut-out. They implemented that on this car. If you look closely you see that it's handmade, rather than a pressing which is spot-welded in as on production cars.

£75000

Let it sink in that this is a car registered for a prototype programme two years before the earliest production car (April 1968), has a documented history and a quality restoration. Considering it's an asking price in a segment where people tend to negotiate a little more than for say, a £20000 asking price, and you'd be close. A lot of money, surely! I fully agree and fair enough. Let's see where it ends up, let's see what it does and give it a round of applause if it does some good eh? If you're not interested in the car, why bother going on the internet and saying it's too expensive. Who cares? The market will decide unless there is a General Secretary of the P6 Communist Allegiance, in which case I'll ask for the recommend price to satisfy all Komrades, and I don't want to go to Gulag.

Values

If a rise in values across the board is attained there have to be a few cars which go that step further. I'm not saying every P6 will fetch that, I don't believe they will ever hit Interceptor values as too many have been built, but I do think a restoration, to a high quality and sympathetic to the original P6 design should be worth doing in the comfort of your own garage, and having the panels painted by a good, renowned painter and the engine rebuilt by someone who knows what they're doing. There has to be a budget and incentive to take these projects on. P6s have always been driven, very few have had decade-long slumbers. Things are going to break and the people brave enough to make a decent, profitable business out of this should have the space to do so.

Currently, you have to get rubbers from Australia to get something up to par. It's ridiculous. Why? Because it isn't worth it to reproduce quality items in Europe apparently, and nobody wants to pay for it. I would have paid double for what Scott charged me, simply because it's so frustrating. During the restoration I think I threw away or gave away stuff from regular suppliers for which I paid £600-800 and it proved to have no value whatsoever as the products weren't usable. Rear windscreen rubbers that don't fit, and after much profanity, it did and then it wouldn't stay flat as it was molded as a straight rubber and not curved. Rear wing mounting brackets where the thread broke loose from the base plate. Coolant hoses = most are shit. Coolant hoses for an air-conditioning car = good luck with that, can't get any. I literally can go on forever, and something has to change otherwise P6 ownership is going to be a massive pain in the future.
 

Hobby

Active Member
If you're not interested in the car, why bother going on the internet and saying it's too expensive. Who cares? The market will decide unless there is a General Secretary of the P6 Communist Allegiance, in which case I'll ask for the recommend price to satisfy all Komrades, and I don't want to go to Gulag.
I always look at Forums and FB as the equivalent of a pub, where people call in to discuss things, pass on information and help each other... If we were all in a pub this discussion would take place so why not on here? Those of us who don't agree with the price are entitled to say so and why and defend our corner, I have to admit I find it funny that people try to put limits on what we are allowed to express views on!

There's only one way to find the true price, and that's at auction, and even then it's only the price at a set point in time... Perhaps that'll happen...
 
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Tom W

Active Member
I think the whole discussion on the merits, or otherwise, of rising classic car values is fascinating. Personally, I think it’s a good thing. As a hobby, we’re reliant on businesses to produce parts to enable cars to be maintained and restored. Businesses are in the business of making a profit. If there’s no profit in something, people won’t make it for long. How many fixable cars are scrapped because you can’t get the bits? Or you can get the bits, but it’s not worth spending the money on a £1000 car? Or owners would like to buy the bits, but they don’t have the financial means, because really, they’ve bought into a hobby they can’t afford to sustain. The only thing they could afford being the temptingly cheap £750 project car they’ve started with, that really is going to cost a fortune to put right.

Now if values rise, several things start to happen. Immediately, anyone who’s sitting on a project that wasn’t economically repairable, suddenly has something worth fixing. As these cars get fixed, parts sales go up. With more parts being shifted, suppliers have more money and more confidence to develop obsolete parts. Low volume, previously obsolete parts may be expensive, but it becomes more worth spending the money if the finished car is more valuable. Would you spend £250 for a bonnet badge for a £1000 car? Probably not, but for a £20,000 car, it’s more palatable.

Once the initial leap has happened and things settle into a steady rise, status quo will return again to some extent. It will probably never be the case that it costs less to restore a car than its final value. So it will always be cheaper to buy a better car, than to restore a wreck. But decent runners will now be much more worth maintaining, and easier to maintain thanks to the improved parts supply. It will have to take a significant price rise to save the very worst cars. This has happened with E-types, where even the worst wreck is now £35k, far more than the sum of the usable spares from it.

Many people seem to criticise the idea that cars will end up in the hands of investors, rather than true enthusiasts. Where’s the problem in that? Investors can be inthusiasts too, and even if they’re not, if their activity results in an improvement in parts for the rest of us, then that’s a benefit.

I also don’t buy the view that rising values pushes true enthusiasts who aren’t so financially well heeled off the bottom of the market. There constantly seem to P6s getting scrapped or parts getting skipped on Facebook. Clearly, at the moment at least, there’s more poor cars than people who want to buy an restore car on a shoestring budget. For people expecting an MOT’d runner for £1000 time has moved on. That was probably the case 20 to 25 years ago when the cars were 20 to 25 years old. Few were restored, they were just old cars of varying condition. The equivalent now is probably a 20 year old BMW.

I bought my Rover as a non runner for £500. I was briefly in profit after I made it run by tightening the engine earth strap. Getting an MOT on it immediately put me back at a loss as that required 4 new tyres and refurbished rear calipers. Later I replaced the whole exhaust, and for a long time that lot added up to more than the car was worth. It’s only now, with slowly rising values, I’m probably in profit again. But that will go if/when I paint it. I don’t intend to sell it, but I also don’t have money to burn, so it would be nice to know I’d get some money back should I ever need too.

Bring on the rising values, I say.
 

Hobby

Active Member
Many people seem to criticise the idea that cars will end up in the hands of investors, rather than true enthusiasts. Where’s the problem in that? Investors can be enthusiasts too, and even if they’re not, if their activity results in an improvement in parts for the rest of us, then that’s a benefit.
You are quite right many investors are also enthusiasts... But there's the key, and why many of us are perhaps suspicious of many who buy purely for gain, the enthusiast investors will bring their cars out and take them to shows but the other sort squirrel them away never to be seen by anyone else but their closest friends hidden under tarps or in those airtight bubbles in some underground hideaway... I find that rather sad. I'd rather a museum own the car than that sort of investor. Whilst I may not see it running at least I'd be able to see it in the "flesh" from time to time... Also investors distort prices, you only have to look at the property market in the UK to see the results of that... Be careful what you wish for...
 

Phil Robson

Well-Known Member
I too would like P6 values to rise from their current cheapie status for all the reasons mentioned & this particular car will surely give some good publicity for the P6 in general & improve their standing in the classic car fraternity. I can't see them in general gaining huge prices, but a healthy increase will do no harm. P6s, particularly series ones IMHO (I do have a series 2...) certainly look every inch a true 'classic'!

Incidentally, many non-classic owners already seem to think P6s are worth a lot; I've had a few comments over the years from people who think that my Ser 1 V8 must be worth £20,000+ (it's probably a £4k - £5k car at best). They're staggered to be told it isn't.

Of course if we've got no petrol, most classics will be worth didly squat, but then again we may all be on LPG or something by then.
 

Tom W

Active Member
Also investors distort prices, you only have to look at the property market in the UK to see the results of that... Be careful what you wish for...
Very true, though in the case of the housing market, it’s something of a captive market as people have to live somewhere. Housing investors rent their properties back to those who can unfortunately no longer afford buy themselves.

A classic car is a luxury, so most will do without if it’s no longer affordable. If and when the bubble bursts on the classic car market, these cocooned “investor” quality vehicles will hit the open market at more affordable prices.

So long as we avoid the early 90s scenario of lots of cars being badly restored to turn a quick profit. That’s not good for enthusiasts or investors.
 

Tom W

Active Member
Of course if we've got no petrol, most classics will be worth didly squat, but then again we may all be on LPG or something by then.
That raises some interesting points. If/when the widespread availability of petrol disappears, I can see only the most desirable and valuable classics retaining their value. I think petrol will still be available to some extent, in the way coal is, but maybe not affordable or easily accessible to everyday enthusiasts.

In this scenario, I think high value investors in the classic car world is a real benefit. High net worth individuals are heard by the government. If they stand to loose millions on the value of their cars because the government turns off the fossil fuel network, maybe they’ll shout about it!
 
Someone mentioned the value of the car being realistic unless completely original. That's contradictory for a few reasons which I'll state below.

1. Rover picked bare base-units off the production lines. If you think your car can rot, then multiply that by ten. They had no serious coating or protection applied as they weren't meant to last, and frankly Rover couldn't be bothered as there was hardly anyone pushing for a warranty claim.
2. Prototypes are test mules for a varying amount of equipment. The specification changed continuously, which begs the question, what is original? Because if I had to built this as April 1st, 1966 it would be a different car. Had I built it as November 1967, it's what it is today. Had I built it as November 1970, it would again be completely different. Things changed.

Wouldn't the early P6B pre-production mules, or whatever you want to call them, have had the original base units without the inner wing cut outs?

Yes and no, technically. They all had/have modified slam panels. 813 and 818 are modified. All the others are standard 2000 as far as I know and I have seen my fair share in the BMIHT archives, pictures which I unfortunately cannot share as I'd infringe their copyright. However, there's a picture in James Taylor's book. The inner wing cut-outs on production cars were developed somewhere, because during testing they found out there was a need for these to place ancillaries and move the servo from above the exhaust manifold to the cut-out. They implemented that on this car. If you look closely you see that it's handmade, rather than a pressing which is spot-welded in as on production cars.
Andries

Thanks, appreciate the detail.

I've seen the pictures in James Taylor's books, and also various other publications over the years. I didn't initially read the early part of the thread as it was 8 years old but I then saw the photos of 818D, which appeared to only have one inner-wing cut out. I have seen one 'prototype', at least that's what I understood it to be, in the flesh before, but a long, long, time ago now, so much so that I can't recall where, when or even the colour. However, I was fairly sure it didn't have any cut-outs. Of course, I might be wrong on that point.

I've now seen better quality pictures of the car advertised and, and the face of it, it does appear to be well done.

My thoughts on value of classic cars are simply that, thoughts. Having recently seen a very nice 1970's car go through a classic car auction near me, been slightly tempted as it was in lovely original condition (but not normally my type of car), it sold for, in my opinion, a very fair and reasonable price in today's market. What I considered to be 'reasonably good value'. I then saw it a couple of weeks later at a dealer with a just-under 100% mark-up. Well into 5-figures, so not just a few hundred pounds ;). Not such good value, in my opinion. However, if it's worth it to a buyer, it's worth it. Purely a personal thing.
 
I think this car still existed near near Tucson, Arizona as late as last year. There is/was a large Rover graveyard there, which I understand the local authorites wanted to close down.

I was interested in a Mark II P5 Coupe at the time, and the owner mentioned this estate. I didn't pursue this one at the time as the reports I got were that it was really rather rotten and the price being asked was unrealistic and based more on the fact that the car had been featured in various books and magazine aricles than on any real value.
Tucson/Arizona: This Google Earth Street View of 2019 show two P6s.
 

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