ADVICE REQUIRED - bottom end rattle

craig r

craig r

Member
Hi everyone,

some help and advice needed please. Ive just been given some bad news regarding my 1976 2200TC in so much that it has a bad bottom end 'rattle' and will probably need a rebuild.

What would you advise as the best approach to tackling this? Should I buy the individual parts required (crank shaft, bearings, con rods, gaskets, oil pump...) and have them fitted or do I have an option to by a fully reconditioned bottom end which could be 'transplanted' on?

I hopefully have enough in my budget to get this work done and although I probably wouldnt get this expenditure back in the long run, I would like to get the car sorted and kept on the road.


Craig.
 
Hi Craig,

Depends on what's needed on your engine really. Has the rattle just developed? What's the oil pressure like? If it's just mains and big-end shells, these can be done with the engine in-situ...there's a thread on here somewhere by Brian Humphries.

Harvey will be along shortly, I'm sure, with more specific and knowledgeable advice.

Stan
 
Hi Stan,

I think it has just developed this rattle. Oil pressure seems fine although I havent used the car much since the tail end of last year.

The mechanic is talking in terms of taking the engine out to do the work. Im kinda stuck because I dont know enough about it to challenge him on this. But if the bearings can be replaced without the need to remove the engine then that would good. Ive had a look at costs and the parts themselves are quite reasonably priced.

I cant seem to see a replacement crank shaft anywhere though? Is this something that normally doesnt need replaced?

Craig.
 
Bearing shell changes on a 4-cylinder engine are - for one reason or another - accepted as a routine service operation at circa 40-60k miles for the P6. They can (and in my opinion should) be done with the engine in situ. Simply drop the sump on its 20-something bolts ad you're away. Don't forget the two at the rear bolting the bell housing up to the sump.

If you have tinkling, rattling timing chains and low (less than 40psi) oil pressure at hot idle (probably a lumpy hot idle!), it's time they were done. Having said that, it's rare for them to so bad that you can detect an actual rumbling. Normally you get the tinkling chains a long time before it gets that bad!

We ran a major technical article in Driving Force about this in 2013, but happily Brian also penned a similar version for his own personal blog a few years ago.
http://roverp6.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/engine-bearings-how-on-earth-do-you-do.html
 
when you guys say 'shells' do you mean that the entire bearing doesnt need replaced? ive been pricing entire bearing sets.
 
The bearing shells are the bearing sets. They are half-round white metal shells. Actually made from sintered phosphor bronze and then white metalled. You'll need two sets - one for the main journals and one for the crank road (or big end) journals. They are quite dear... standard size rod bearings were completely unobtainable when I first rebuilt me engine in 2011, but remanufactured Vandervell examples are much easier to come by these days. Sadly their price has not reduced as their availability has gone up....
 
Ive been on MGBD website and can get -

Main bearing engine crank set.
Con Rod bearing big end engine set.

Is that what I need?

I've also priced a bottom end gasket set and a new oil pump.
 
You need to get it apart first to find out what size shells you need in case it's had a regrind at some point.
 
Yes, that's right. But this is assuming your crank is still standard and has never been reground. It's not massively likely it will have been but best to strip it first - the size will be written on the shell. Either 'STD' or '+0.010' etc.

The 'bottom end gasket set' is a bit of a misnomer as it contains all the seals and gaskets to reseal the auxiliary housing, engine side plates, external oil pipes, water pump, etc, none of which are strictly 'bottom end'. You won't disturb any of those seals by removing the sump.
There is no sump gasket as the sump has a machined face which forms an integral part of the engine's torsional strength (hence all the bolts!). You could use a wafer thin paper gasket of your own devising if you wished, but blue hylomar or similar non-setting gasket paste is what's required. You will have to remove the oil pick up pipe to access the big ends on cyls 2 & 3, and the centre main cap, so you should replace the O-ring as a matter of course. I can't remember off hand what size it is, but Aldi sell an imperial O-ring set for about £5, which are suitable for everywhere in the engine EXCEPT the cylinder head gasket O-ring.
Take care to ensure the front crank shaft seal is correctly seated when you put the sump back on. It can end up on an angle and blow out with crank case pressure, with the inevitable rapid emptying of your sump. You don't want that on a dark October night 100 miles from home... which is what happened to me!
 
craig,

you want a second opinion before getting anything done.

Are you still using the car or is it off the road? I would have a listen, garages dont really know these cars but I could recommend a garage who does.

Colin
 
arthuy said:
craig,

you want a second opinion before getting anything done.

Are you still using the car or is it off the road? I would have a listen, garages dont really know these cars but I could recommend a garage who does.

Colin
Click to expand...

Colin,

thats my thinking at the moment, to try and get a second opinion. I can definitely hear a big rattle on cold start up, then after a few seconds its gone. My MOT expires on 6th May so im able to get the car to someone else who can have a look at it. I want to get this fixed and have a budget set aside, however if this wipes it out then a lot of planned improvements will have to be shelved.

Can you IM me with details of the garage you know about?

Craig.
 
craig r said:
I can definitely hear a big rattle on cold start up, then after a few seconds its gone.
Click to expand...

That's perfectly normal for a Rover 4 cyl that hasn't run for a while and the oil filter has drained its oil back in the sump.
The use of the correct oil filter with anti-drain flaps helps to avoid this issue.
 
Demetris said:
craig r said:
I can definitely hear a big rattle on cold start up, then after a few seconds its gone.
Click to expand...

That's perfectly normal for a Rover 4 cyl that hasn't run for a while and the oil filter has drained its oil back in the sump.
The use of the correct oil filter with anti-drain flaps helps to avoid this issue.
Click to expand...

The mechanic heard it and let the car go cold again. He started it again and this time put a stethescope to the crankcase and said he was certain there was a serious issue. He is a very reputable engineer and is known for building engines so ive had to take his advice on face value at the moment.

I'll try to get a second opinion as im wary of the labour costs involved in removing the engine to fix this issue.
 
If the noise disappears as soon as the oil pressure comes up ( about 5 secs on a cold engine ) then there is unlikely to be anything seriously wrong . I'm afraid that your mechanic may be very experienced on modern engines, but know nothing of the quirks of older engines with " upside down " oil filters . My newly rebuilt, by me, engine is just the same if it has not been started for a day or two . I suggest that you disconnect the HT lead at the coil, spin the engine over on the starter until the oil light goes out, and then reconnect the HT lead and start the engine. If there is no noise, your problem is solved
 
Demetris said:
craig r said:
I can definitely hear a big rattle on cold start up, then after a few seconds its gone.
Click to expand...

That's perfectly normal for a Rover 4 cyl that hasn't run for a while and the oil filter has drained its oil back in the sump.
The use of the correct oil filter with anti-drain flaps helps to avoid this issue.
Click to expand...

It's not the anti drain flap that is missing from the incorrect oil filters, it's an internal standpipe that keeps the filter can full when the engine is off. Only useful if the filer is fitting inverted, so often eliminated in search of economy by filter manufacturers.

But that's a detail, the point is to use the correct filter.

Yours
Vern
 
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