Crankshaft pulley arrangements

The box of bits that came with my new P6b project included a crankshaft harmonic balancer but no V pulleys (just a SERP pulley, which I am removing). The balancer has timing marks that seem to line up with the pointer on a serp front cover, but not the p6 cover I want to use. So I don’t know whether it’s the original balancer that matches the engine (a 4.2) or not. Firing the engine up with it on didn’t reveal any noticeable lumpiness but it’s difficult to tell on a car that’s not been run for years. Anyway, thoughts on the risks of just using it as is? Or buying a P6 version with the right marks for a P6 front cover?

Also, does anyone have a picture or two of how the pulleys for the fan/water/alternator) and PAS pump are arranged on the balancer?

Also, does anyone have such pulleys for sale, plus a PAS pump bracket?

Thanks!
 
No pictures but the Fan/Alternator/Balancer belt is a simple triangle running off the groove in the front of the balancer. Cars with the plastic P6B fan have a smaller diameter water pump pulley. The PAS pump runs in a horizontal loop from a bolt on pulley on the rear of the Balancer. The pump is mounted facing rearwards so runs in reverse to the engine rotation so you can't use a P5B pump which is mounted normally and turns in the same direction as the engine.
 
No pictures but the Fan/Alternator/Balancer belt is a simple triangle running off the groove in the front of the balancer. Cars with the plastic P6B fan have a smaller diameter water pump pulley. The PAS pump runs in a horizontal loop from a bolt on pulley on the rear of the Balancer. The pump is mounted facing rearwards so runs in reverse to the engine rotation so you can't use a P5B pump which is mounted normally and turns in the same direction as the engine.

That's just fabulous, thank you both. I have a long way to go on this project...
 
Andrew, I am looking at getting a serp front cover 3.9 (only have pics so far) and am interested in the height of the water pump above the crank centre - will a fan on it clear the top of the radiator shroud ? Is the pump centre higher than that on a P6B/SD1 front cover? I make the distance on an SD1 cover between 6.75" to 7".
thanks.
 
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Hi

Assuming you're intended to use the 'interim' timing cover with crank driven oil pump and a dizzy, etc? The centre of the pump is about the same as for the P6 version. Maybe very slightly lower but not by any significant amount. The problems I have had with the conversion (which was not done by me, and was not completed because I think the guy who attempted it - supposedly a P6 expert - just ran out of ideas, and why I am converting back to P6 spec) are these:

1. Unlike the P6 water pump the serpentine pump needs to spin anti-clockwise. As you know the crank spins clockwise (when facing the engine from the front) so this means the belt needs to go under the water pump pulley (which is smooth-faced, to match the smooth, reverse side, of the belt). To achieve this (and maybe for other reasons) Rover put the PAS pump up high, top front on the nearside (left side) of the engine, giving the belt a route upwards from the crank and then back down to the water pump, and then up to the alternator on the other side before dropping back to the crank. (Ignoring any idler/tensioner pulleys or AC pump pulleys of course). On the serpentine PAS bracket, and using the serpentine PAS pulley (which is quite wide) this pushes the belt up, making it rub against the underside of the top radiator hose. To overcome this I modified a Skoda water pump pulley. It has the right centre hole and the right number of ridges, and the right front to back dimension, but a smaller diameter than the Rover version, which just about drops the belt below the hose. (You need to drill three new fixing bolt holes in the Skoda pulley but its only made of plastic so this is no big deal.) Great, but now the PAS pump also gets in the way of the engine steady bar; if its fitted (as Rover did, between the PAS pump bracket and the engine) this pushes the PAS pump too far forward, out of alignment with the crank pulley. It's probably possible to cure this by grinding some metal off the back of PAS pump bracket, which is only alloy, but I haven't gone that far. A different pulley would be another solution but I think you'd have to have one made.

I also worried a bit, perhaps unduly, about the effect of spinning the PAS pump faster than it was designed to spin. This probably doesn't matter on the basis that there must be some sort of pressure relief valve arrangement in there? I have no idea.

2. Unlike the P6 version the serpentine water pumps (I've checked them all, although there might be an old Buick or whatever version that has escaped my researches) have no outlets for the cabin heater hose, and unlike the P6 version the back of the timing cover has no outlet for the thermostat bypass hose. When I got the car the P6 'expert' had not solved these problems. To overcome this I put a T connector in the bottom radiator hose, and another smaller T-connector off that, to plumb in the two hoses. It actually worked quite well, but looked a right bodge. There are probably other ways of curing this problem, - perhaps involving using a heater hose as a thermostat bypass? - but I haven't explored them. I'm no expert and I decided I was getting in too deep at this point.

3. The interim serpentine timing cover has only one port for the oil pressure sender and oil warning light - which isn't the right thread for a P6 pressure sender or oil warning light switch. I solved this by finding a suitably threaded T adapter, allowing me to plumb in both the sender and switch, which works fine, but again it looks like a bodge.

4. Tensioning the belt is a rigmarole. To be fair I found it actually needs no more tension than a V belt. This sort of makes sense on the basis that one of the advantages of a serpentine belt is its width and its multi-ridges, which makes for a lot of friction; massive tension is not required. (I did experiment with a tensioner/idler but decided the level of tension it created was much more than required.) I found the best way of tensioning it was by levering up the alternator in the old-fashioned way - but it wasn't easy creating arrangements to mount and fix the alternator to allow this, using the new timing cover. There are other solutions to the one I tried, including perhaps the Land Rover thing of a screw tensioner across the front of the engine? - I didn't get that far.

5. This was the killer for me: The serpentine water pump is really designed for a screw on viscous fan with the 11-blade plastic fan. (30m metric fine thread.) I even bought one. However, the pump is just too long to allow space for the fan and its viscous adapter. I tried to overcome this by doing away with the viscous and just bolting the fan direct to the pump, but this required me brazing up an adapter. A 30m trailer hub nut was the best I could find, brazed to an aluminium plate. Again, a right old bodge, and creating clearance at the back for the pump pushed the fan very close to the radiator (we are talking a few mm, although my radiator has a slightly thicker core than standard) to the extent that it rubbed the underside of the metal fan shroud. I could maybe have solved this by finding a smaller fan, or adapting in some way the old metal fan, or shaving the tips off the plastic fan, but at this point I threw in the towel.

It's all soluble, no doubt, but needs more skill and knowledge than I posses - a low bar! I managed to get it all working (but no fan) and decided I couldn't live with it. The advantage of a crank-driven oil pump and a single, easy to change, belt, just didn't seem worth the disadvantages. Maybe if it was to facilitate an aircon installation it would make more sense? I would love to hear about a successful conversion. I also have a P5b with a serpentine front (currently off the road) and it is much better, simply because there is far more room to play with than there is in the P6.

Best wishes

Andy
 
Andy,
Thanks heaps for this info, makes the decision to go SD1 cover very easy. Exactly the detail I needed, and the exact reason Fora like this are so valuable.
Thanks
 
I think John Eales makes P6B style timing cover with crank driven oil pump which also takes remote oil filter. he does a kit for the conversion, You would then just need the serpentine cog for alternator and water pump and a set for the two power steering pump ones...
 
He does! - £425 a pop, just for the cover. Ouch. A lot, I concluded, for the advantages of a crank driven oil pump. It would allow you to use the P6 pump, meaning that so long as you can line up the pulleys ok you can leave the PAS pump where it is.

Another problem I came across is timing marks on the P6 crank balancer: they’re wrong for the serp cover. My car had a serp balancer fitted, but it’s another thing to bear in mind. (I’m not sure a serp pulley can be fitted onto a P6 balancer and line up ok with the other pulleys, but I’m sure it’s resolvable.)

So, I’m fitting a P6 / SD1 cover with the uprated oil pump, which I hope will give the same, or at least similar, result. Not that my car even had, or has, an oil pressure problem to cure! It was I guess a fun thing to try, and I’m sure there is somebody out there with more wit than me who’s made it work elegantly. I made it work but ended up with a bit of a Frankenstein monster, which is always the risk with these kind of adaptions.
 
And another issue (sorry, but I've spend a stupid amount of time on this and it's nice to get it off my chest!): A serpentine conversion involving a P5/6 waterpump necessitates a belt arrangement that spins the waterpump clockwise. This means the ribbed side of the belt needs to pass over the pump pulley - and there are no ribbed versions of the serpentine water pump pulley, only smooth versions. But if anybody out there needs a ribbed version, I have two. Don't ask...

Still not sure how you'd arrange for the serpentine belt to pass over the crank pulley, PAS pump, water pump and alternator, all clockwise...maybe I'm missing something doltishly obvious...
 
So, I’m fitting a P6 / SD1 cover with the uprated oil pump, which I hope will give the same, or at least similar, result. Not that my car even had, or has, an oil pressure problem to cure! It was I guess a fun thing to try, and I’m sure there is somebody out there with more wit than me who’s made it work elegantly. I made it work but ended up with a bit of a Frankenstein monster, which is always the risk with these kind of adaptions.

Hi Andrew,

I am sure that you're already aware that the P6B and SD1 timing covers are not the same. The latter has a deeper gear chamber that accepts deeper gears. Which oil pump front cover are you fitting, P6B or SD1? These are different also, the former has the oil filter bypass valve within the cover, the latter has it within the oil filter. The spigot for the oil filter on each is different, so it is only possible to fit the correct filter to the right cover.

Ron
 
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P6 cover, P6 pump (NOS), P6 filter. I’m playing by the rules this time...

I’ve been reading up in the uprated oil pump option. I think it’s beyond my ken, so I’m intending to just stick to the stock items.
 
You know a project is going badly when you take the timing cover bolts out - and one emerges with a metric thread and helicoil swarf.

I’ve ordered some extra long unc helicoils. I’ve never helicoiled something this important before.

I’m still pondering the oil pump question. The engine is a 4.2. It ran fine on standard P6 ancillaries before Mr P6 expert got his hands on it. If I had the confidence to uprate the oil pump, now would be a perfect time to do it. I’m never going to take the timing cover off again. Oh help.
 
Ron,
I have an SD1 front cover (thats what I was told it was anyway) complete on hand , and there is a pressure relief valve in the pump cover - a spring loaded piston, which cant be much else IMHO. The unit came with some electrical connections that are foriegn to a P6B cover, so pretty sure it is SD1. Will check the part no cast on it tomorrow.
Andrew - re the engine being a 4.2 - good luck finding pistons in anything but std size!
 
Ron,
I have an SD1 front cover (thats what I was told it was anyway) complete on hand , and there is a pressure relief valve in the pump cover - a spring loaded piston, which cant be much else IMHO. The unit came with some electrical connections that are foriegn to a P6B cover, so pretty sure it is SD1. Will check the part no cast on it tomorrow.

JP,
The pressure relief valve and filter bypass valve are not the same item. The oil pump cover be it a P6B item or later item all have the pressure valve within, but only the P6B cover contains the oil filter bypass valve.

Ron.
 
The timing cover, and these gears...
 

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The gears fit flush in the cover, and seem ready to line up with the bottom of the dizzy...
 

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Ron,
Sorry, I missed the distinction between the pressure relief and filter bypass.....As long as there IS a filter bypass somewhere in the system all should work, shouldnt it? If we are doing oil changes at fiarly frequent intervals we shouldnt get the filter bypass activating , shouldnt we?
Is there any reason a P6B pump cover wont fit an SD1 timing cover????

Andy - in my experience with 2 SD1s driven to 100k miles the extra oil moved by the longer gears makes a big difference to the life of the valve gear, so I recommend the later cover & oil pump. Both my SD1s were serviced at a dealer, so would have had factory oil change intervals.
thanks
 
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