Custom Anti Roll Bar- Cheap opportunity!

Well, yesterday we had a dry day and a chance to do a bit more driving. The conversion is superb in context of what the P6 is – a 50 year old car. There clearly is huge reserves of grip, it’s just a question of how comfortable things feel getting towards that point. The handling is still utterly predictable, which is the main thing - the bar doesn't change this. What becomes obvious now is that the next limitation is at the front tyres. You can certainly feel the sidewalls moving, I’m guessing going for the Vitesse alloys with the bigger tyres pretty much addresses this. Also as has been stated you need to re-educate yourself quite a lot as to what to expect entering a bend. You don’t need to ask your passengers to brace themselves either.

How to describe it? Well, comparisons between anything modern is just completely pointless, everything is now engineered towards wide low profile tyres and a much firmer ride. The nearest in my (limited) experience would be something like an mid-80s Mercedes E-class with a fair bit more balance towards understeer. Perhaps more like a 250D or 300D with the heavy motor out front… Maybe the HD springs can push the balance a little rearwards?

I took it along a local road that follows the Rhein (Irchelsrasse between Teufen and Berg am Irchel) which is about as close to a handling circuit as you can find around here. Every year we get motorcyclists killed because the corners are blind and tighten as they progress. Well the car felt great, until I had a reality check and I could barely keep up with a young woman in her mid-90s Ford Fiesta…. The car handles and has power but with only 3 automatic gears, you simply can’t accelerate out of the slow corners.

One thing I do miss compared to my old P6 is the PAS, not because of the assistance on the move but because the 4.5 turns lock to lock and massive wheel really does make the car more ponderous than it could be. The PAS box is 3.25 turns and this makes a massive difference. (the SD1 only 2.7!).

I think the bar, HD rear springs, gas dampers (which ones?) and PAS (with smaller wheel) is about as far as I’ll go. I don't think any surgery or radical springs are on the cards. I do still want it to ride like a P6. I will certainly put back my 14” alloys as the wider rim gives noticeably better control for the standard tyres. Keep the Rostyles for shows.


No PAS? that would make roundabouts a real chore I would expect, you should sort that if you want a more pleasurable experience.
Your assessment seems to be pretty close to mine though I think even with the SD1 mags and wider profiled tires you can still feel sidewall movement but in a pleasant way, I know before conversion I couldn't sort dip and roll from body and isolate tires from the mix.
As I noted before it does take time to relearn the new driving parameters that the thicker bar makes.
Interesting to note your comments on the 3 spd box, I think that even a 4 spd box conversion would still not fully address this, either a 5 spd manual box or 6 spd auto or better would definitely make the performance more competitive.
Perhaps the difference between the Fiesta and the V8 is not only the gears available but the more flexible rev range on the 4 cylinder car as the power to weight is probably pretty even between them.
I always remember back in my earlier motoring days my vast disappointment of having the much looked down on Austin 1300 (land crab style) thoroughly owning my 6 cylinder MkII Zodiac (110+ HP export model) on any road that had hills or bends. The 1300's extra gear and manual box plus the revy engine made a huge difference on the engine capacity though I am sure its lighter body was a big factor also.

Graeme
 
Yes, PAS joins the HD springs as the next job... Really you don't need the power assistance on the move, only when parking really. I know there are those who claim you lose "feel" but as I say the gain in higher gearing really more than compensates. I'm thinking back to 1989 when I last drove a car with it, I hope my memory is reliable.
 
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Peter are you still planning on using an electric PAS pump? if so what type are youplanning? I had a look around for the Citreon Saxa unit as i could use my standard oil container, problem is finding somewhere to fit it (other than where the normal one goes) I finally figured out why they route the return line around three sides of the engine bay.... it passes across the front of the radiator so is there as a really cheap oil cooler. I keep forgetting to measure my anti roll bar. I know it is 1mm larger than the diagonal cross section of a standard bar though.
 
Hi Mike, nope I got the complete LHD standard set-up going in. Yep, the LHD set up does a full circuit of the engine. Hope you have the wiper motor on the idler and not the steering box otherwise you'll need to swap that too. I think all S2s are OK.
 
This thread needs a bump. With the recent purchases of ARB's some reviews on their fitted performance would be good to see.

Graeme
 
Why don't some of you guys with stock suspension and uprated ARB's put on a little negative camber and see how you get on with that ? you don't need much, a 1/2 deg will make a huge difference and is so easy to do.
 
Hi Graeme, yes you're right and sorry for not posting before (been enjoying my transformed 3500s too much).

Fitted my ARB as supplied by Torsion Performance. I fitted a 24mm bar but was given the option of 25mm however erred on the safe side regarding clearance. Looking now a 25mm would have been fine but doubt there would be much more improvement on what I have. So easy to fit once one of the front wings is removed. I had read somewhere that someone managed to do the job without wing removal. May be possible but I didn't want to damage anything so for the time it takes to whip a wing off I think it's worth it.

The result. I can now throw the car around and not have it behave like a relative of the Citroen 2CV, it corners much more like a modern car, significantly reduced roll with no perceivable loss in ride quality. This mod has transformed the handling of the car and I would highly recommend it to any P6 owner.

One VERY happy bunny, can't praise it enough.:D:D
 
Well all I can make is a suggestion and you can have a go. When I lowered my car it went from zero to 1 deg negative camber, I did not want to start out with that much negative, I wanted 1/2 deg.
What I did was to make some some shims from 3/8 plain washers that I cut into horse shoes to slip over the studs holding the front pivots at the firewall. Now in my case I wanted to lessen the camber so two washers went under each of the inner mount studs, this lessened the camber by 1/2 deg.
So if you have zero camber and want to try for 1/2 deg negative place the washers under the outer pivot. Then get the camber checked AND re set the tracking.
Of course two washers is a guide, you may need three, or one thick and one thin .................
I found that with the stiff ARB and some negative camber the understeer I had has all but gone. Good luck !
 
I'll have to have a closer look at mine, then, as it's been lowered as well, but I don't know what's been done to counter the camber decrease. Thanks for the tip.
 
Hi guys,
When i stripped out top link assemblies on my NADA noticed washers on inner mount areas on both sides.
This was done at the factory as car had never been apart,i never measured camber beforehand.
Cheers.
Clive. .
 
I just installed my Denis Trigg roll bar (24mm?) and although the understeer is still there, the body roll has been reduced. Not a huge reduction, but I no longer feel like I'm about to fall out of the drivers seat like I did before.
I also have Koni's front and rear set to "Ron" spec (he told me what to set them to, I forget) and some poly bushes in the front and rubber in the rear.
 
Well, if it's a 24mm bar the roll reduction should be HUGE, like 2/3rds gone. Yes, it still understeers however I think not as badly as it initially feels with the tall rubber. Are you running heavy duty rear springs as this tends to throw the balance (a little more) to the rear?
 
They're King Springs in the rear and I'm guessing from the car's previous life (towing a 6x4 trailer full of firewood) that yes, they are heavy duty. It doesn't have the saggy bum that a lot of tired p6s seem to have.
 
I just installed my Denis Trigg roll bar (24mm?) and although the understeer is still there, the body roll has been reduced. Not a huge reduction, but I no longer feel like I'm about to fall out of the drivers seat like I did before.
I also have Koni's front and rear set to "Ron" spec (he told me what to set them to, I forget) and some poly bushes in the front and rubber in the rear.

That sounds a little disappointing, I know the change on mine was dramatic with roll being reduced to pretty much the same as a modern car for cornering performance, given that, have you physically measured the bar diameter? and what did the suppliers tell you as regards to the metal used and the level of tempering?


Graeme
 
Hast it ever been an issue, that with a reinforced ARB you will guide more "force" into the bulkhead area ? Think, it´s important to have stiffened springs then (especially rear) also to reduce this stress to the bulkhead area, or ?
 
Hast it ever been an issue, that with a reinforced ARB you will guide more "force" into the bulkhead area ? Think, it´s important to have stiffened springs then (especially rear) also to reduce this stress to the bulkhead area, or ?
shouldnt be - Rover engineers originally specced a thicker ARB but the bean counters got to it. I believe the 2000S was spotted in the wild with this.
 
Hast it ever been an issue, that with a reinforced ARB you will guide more "force" into the bulkhead area ? Think, it´s important to have stiffened springs then (especially rear) also to reduce this stress to the bulkhead area, or ?

Absolutely not. The only thing that changes is the twist in the bar. Think about it, the cornering forces are the same at the same speed. The reaction force in the roll bar acting against the car is therefore the same.

It might add stresses on worn suspension components that have been worked in different directions and possible this could accelerate wear but I can't really see an issue.

You main issue is simply it'll encourage you to drive more aggressively.
 
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