Noisy New Motor

amcdonald

amcdonald

Active Member
Hello

Well over a decade into the restoration. The final (well, until the next thing goes wrong) issue of leaking rear calipers has been fixed. So the 1970 V8 Auto with its professionally rebuilt engine is just venturing out a mile at a time. In the garage it sounds fine from the outside and inside. On the road it sounds pretty horrible in the cabin. Seemingly every click and pop and grind of every single engine component is audible in the car when underway. it sounds like a hot rod might, although with none of the horsepower. It actually makes my four pot sound like a super refined motor by comparison. I did even add extra sound deadening.

I was concerned enough to double check triple check it actually had oil in (it does, although 10W-40 based on D&D Fabrication recommendation planning to change to 20W-50 after running in). Then I went and bought an oil pressure tester as I don't trust the gauge and that came out 30-40psi, so it seems like oil might actually be circulating. Although it does not seem like very much is coming out in the valve covers when I peer in through the filler cap hole. Although I have no clue what it "should" look like?

Are there any rays of hope? For example running it in quietening it down? It was rather quieter before the rebuild but its a long time ago so its hard to remember exactly. Although if they all were like this, nobody would have one I reckon. Any suggestions / comments?


Adrian
 
There are three common areas for noise early on: 1. the exhaust, they need a layer of soot before they quiten down but check for small leaks and touching the body too. 2. Anything but standard air cleaner; they also quiten the air inlet and 3. Tappet noise while the air gets out of the system. The last one always takes ages to stop ticking. The thinner oil won't help but you'll fix that after run in. Also everything needs grease on it. especially gear linkages and balls. leaving them ungreased will cause very loud noises and damage the surfaces. obviously check for loose stuff that can blow around when the car is moving. To do that you have to physically try to move every possible candidate as it will look fine standing still.
 
Hello Adrian,

That doesn't sound too good does it. The first step I would take would be to drain the 10W-40 oil, change the filter and then refill with 20W-50. Ideally the engine should have running in oil, but needs must. I would leave the 20W-50 oil for 500 miles at most, drain plus change the filter, refill with another fill of 20W-50 and leave this one for 1000 miles, then repeat again. This time you could leave the oil for 2500 miles before changing again along with the filter.

The reason I suggest changing the oil for a more viscous option is that Rover V8 engine is more reliant on oil flow than oil pressure. The oil pump gears can move a greater volume of oil per unit time when the oil is more viscous. Viscosity is a measure of a fluid's resistance to shear deformation, so the more viscous the fluid, the greater its resistance to shear and the easier it is to be pumped. Your engine could be making all this noises because it is not receiving sufficient oil where it needs to, even though the pressure will read as being fine. My Rover's 4.6 engine was new when it went it, using 20W-50 running in oil, and it was extremely quiet.

Ron.
 
Check there are no missing grommets to the engine bay. I had the accelerator linkage one missing and the difference with it replaced was far more than you'd expect. Check also the exhaust maifolds are tight and not leaking.

If the noise is on the move, check the engine and transmission are mounted properly and are not contacting the body directly anywhere - this will sound absolutely horrible. My transmission would contact the right hand transmission mount and it sounded like a blender vibrating through the car.
 
Disintegrating foam along the base of the windscreen and/or a perished scuttle-panel seal, allowing noise from the engine compartment straight into the cabin? Can be fixed without removing the windscreen.
 
Hello

Thanks for the suggestions. My first ever P6 in the nineties was supplied by a well known P6 "specialist" and had one of the rubber bungs on the transmission tunnel completely AWOL, and I remember what a racket that "restored" car made when I picked it up. But they saw me coming with some cash and no idea. So I know what an air gap can do. I will check that a bit more carefully. One thing I noticed is when the starter cranks, I hear a clonk which is something hitting something else so maybe there's some inappropriate touching.

On the oil, D&D Fabrications are the 215 specialist and they are highly insistent to use 10W-40 in order to get enough oil up to the top. I am surprised a little about the divergence of opinion though. As I am in California, its not like the car will ever be started properly cold when (if ever) things get past the break in mileage........
 
I would be checking everything I could think of, including engine mounts, gearbox mount, no part of the engine touching the bodywork, all nuts and bolts tight, etc

Then run it around gently for 20 miles or so, and see if it quietens down.

I just rebuilt my engine and used a high zinc 10W-40 for the running in bit.

Did you break the cam in first?
 
Hi

Yes I did the cam break in with fans everywhere. That was an adventure that I also screwed up - maybe there will be issues as a result. Here is a lesson to anyone thinking about doing this: don't do it if you have changed your distributor to electronic and not gotten round to installing the tachometer innerds upgrade to get it working again. This is because you will be instead using a clip on temporary tachometer. These are all fine and dandy. Unless you also have a 4 pot P6 and the last time you used it was on that. So your selector is on the wrong number of cylinders and you don't notice. So your measured RPMS are all wrong. Not sure who might ever do that........fortunately in my case I think I was generally on the high side on (measured) RPMs so maybe / hopefully I was not too super low. Besides, there is zero chance I could have run it at 2000rpm without overheating as it was boiling up as it was with two big fans running.
 
On the oil type, The first number is the cold viscosity, like when its in the bottle at room temperature. The last number is the viscosity of Hot oil but the number represents what the equivalant cold oil would be to get to the viscosity of the hot oil. Thats caused by the oils being multigrade ie. thicker when hot but needing a simple way to identify their hot and cold properties.

Consequence of above is that a 10w40 and 20w40 will be different when cold but the same when hot. In general the smaller numbers 5w and 10w are used in cooler climates so the oil isn't too thick to move on startup and will drain off everything when th engine stops to reduce sludging etc.
 
For anyone facing the cam break in procedure, take this very seriously. I am coming to the realization after clocking up about 100 miles so far that my clattering motor is probably a result of my break in cock up, not getting the RPM (even close) to the 2000rpm mark. So, barring any divine intervention you have just finished your car and then you have to rip it apart again to replace the camshaft and tappets, and do it all over. For mental health reasons, avoid this I reckon as it is a struggle to view this as a useful learning experience. If you want to drive around with a Massey Ferguson experience like I am then ignore this message.
 
I Wouldn't pull your camshaft out just yet. If your issue is camshaft the ticking will be audible while in the garage as well as on the road. One other option is the rockers hitting the covers. The clearence is quite small. Miss alignment and rubber gaskets (even cork) clamped down tight is enough for the rockers to touch the covers making them rattle. Again you should be able to replicate the noise in the garage.

Another common cause is the fan hitting the surround normally due to the tie bar rubbers being too small ( they can compress over time) OR the near side engine mount being broken or loose. That issue isn't noticable till your on the road normally as there isn't enough torque reaction in the garage as their is no load. Its an Auto so you could do a really quick stall test (like 10 seconds) That;ll load up the engine and make it move. To do it you put the hand and footbrake on very hard and put your foot on the throttle at least 3/4 down. REvs will rise then level out between 2000 and 3000. by that point it should be noisy. Stop as soon as its noisy ie. back off throttle, and leave the engine running at above idle to cool the trans fluid down for five minutes.
M
 
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Noise + lack of power + unsatisfying cam break in do seem to be pointing to the cam lobes.
But as Mike says it definitely doesn’t hurt to investigate the other potential culprits first
 
I'm surprised mr 215 didn't run the engine and break in the cam before letting it out of his shop. Exactly what noises are you hearing and from where in the car do they come?
M
 
Hello

No, it was just the long block rebuild - no "accessories" were on the motor at the D&D shop. It's mostly the valvey tappety ticking noise that is coming from dead ahead behind the console, well more or less where the motor is. Transmission is quiet. I took a lot of time on the insulation so I don't think I have any holes in the bulkhead but at the weekend I will be doing more checks. Here it is on the first outing, as you can see quite a lot of effort went in since the late neolithic when I started.

For those wondering, the answer is Cherry Red.


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Wow. That looks absolutely excellent! It's very clear that an awful lot of time, and presumably no small amount of money, has been invested in bringing that car to that standard. I hope you can rectify your engine troubles without too much further expense and effort.
 
Wow, it does look very showroom! Check the hot box around the exhaust for loose bolts or tinware. If it gets down to just one or two consistent ticks it may well be you just haven't driven it far enough or at high enough revs to get the air out of the last lifter but such issues will be noticable when car is idling. if its the rockers the tick will sound a bit like a muffled bell, kinda deeper an hollow. if it sounds more like gravel in the engine then back the ign timing off; it's probably pinking.

I assume you have the tie bar between the Drivers side cylinder head and the ign coil bracket or thereabouts? Also if one of the plug leads is shorting it can give a ticking noise. The actual path the leads follow is important to prevent misfires. It needs to be as per the book.
M
 
I just had another look at your picture and noticed you don't have the rubber cone on the air cleaner. that may well be your main issue as it dampens the underbonnet noise as well as the intake noise. Also the ticking may be the 'snout' part hitting the bonnet.
 
Hello

Well after upping the ante, things have improved. I took a few runs up and down the freeway with some velocity about 50 miles or so to get the RPMs consistently up and all the juices flowing, after nothing was getting any better pootling around the streets. Seems like you can screw up your cam break in and then get away with it after all. The ticking is improved enormously. When pumping the pedal it is now more V8 goodness than diesel tractor. Its not perfect and maybe other things need to be sorted but that valvetrain pure nastiness is mostly gone. I was definitely very worried for a while - especially after watching the cam break in video on here and comparing that to what I did. No wonder it didn't result in a properly working motor.

On the air cleaner, I do have the rubber/mesh part - I am not sure why I did not install it but as I have the heat shield insulation that does keep the bonnet high up and probably pads it right at the air cleaner. But I don't know that for sure so maybe I will pop it back on. Is that what you meant? It's not a cone, so maybe I am misunderstanding.

On the tie bar I have it, but I need to get a special bracket made as the car has the AC mega bracket that I removed so there's no place for it to go. In fact I had to trawl around for ages trying to see pics on the internet to work out where the bugger is supposed to go.

Also, after almost 20 years in the US I saw my first P6 that wasn't mine in the flesh about to depart on a car club run. That I did not go on.

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