P8

Hi, There are a number of similarities to Saab 99/900, in particular the rear end treatment and the front inner wings. I would guess the front suspension is double wishbone on a subframe because of what look like mounting points at the base of the inner wings and because there's no apparent mounts for the top of springs or dampers.

Colin
 
I wonder if the body press tools still exist? Hanging around somewhere in longbridge or elsewhere?
 
Colin, my information is that it was double wishbone front suspension, pivoting on fore-aft oriented steel tubes to allow for the longitudinal compliance necessary for good ride comfort, but with the tight tolerances laterally to keep good suspension geometry for good handling. Something of the philosophy of engineering embraced very, very much later in the FWD Lotus Elan and the McLaren F1. Wheelbase control isn't important for good dynamic steering geometry but precise control of track, camber and caster change is. Rover had this worked out on P6 and P7 prototypes. A google search for 'Rover P7' gives us Rare Rovers - P7

Of note on this page are the descriptions of the P7 prototypes, including the notes for P7A and very importantly the P7/C.
The P7/C Reg No: OXC831E having the P8 front and rear suspension and the V8.

"P7A
Registration No: Not remembered
The front suspension of P6, designed to provide an engine bay wide enough for the possible fitment of gas turbine engine, had long been recognised as a severe constraint on road noise refinement and cornering performance through poor wheel camber control. By this time thought was being given to a P5 replacement known as P8 so this further batch of P7s was commenced. P7 was planned before the V8 engine decision was taken; thus it was built with a 6-cylinder engine. The major change was the incorporation of double-wishbone front suspension mounted on a subframe which was isolated from the body by 4 cylindrical interleaved rubber bushes disposed parallel to the vehicle longitudinal axis. Alteration of the position of the inner pivot height of the upper wishbone was possible, thus allowing various roll centre heights to be explored. During subsequent testing the optimum position was determined balancing camber control and steering kickback."

and

"P7/C
Registration No: OXC831E
Front suspension and engine installation were as P7/B but the rear suspension was completely new representing the intended design for P8. It incorporated a fixed length de Dion tube, forward of the wheel centre line, pivoted on a complex rubber bearing mounted on the axle extension housing. Constant velocity plunging driveshafts were used and diagonal radius rods completed the location. Early assessments were very encouraging with major improvements in ride, handling and road noise reduction. The usual development programme of spring and damper optimisation, suspension bush rate selection and tyre selection occupied and educated our small team of engineers."

With one quote from this article, perhaps explaining why Jaguar were so keen to nobble the P8, even at such a late stage...

"As a postscript it is worth recording that the P7 work led to a P8 design which produced less road noise than a Jaguar XJ6."

Rover were very keen to improve on the ride refinement and transmission of road noise familiar to P6 drivers, with suspension loads and vibration being fed into the main bulkhead on our cars by the spring location. It appears that as typical in the days of old Rover, the engineers overachieved, so thorough was the job done.

So it seems the P8 was quicker, lighter, more economical, better handling, better riding and more refined than the already quite highly rated XJ6, long touted by the British press in Car, Autocar and Motor, as the best car in the world and better in it's ride/handling abilities than the German opposition from Mercedes Benz, let alone BMW's pretty but badly flawed E3 (with it's 'oh my god' oversteer in the wet semi-trailing arm IRS).

No wonder Lyons wanted the P8 dead.
 
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Is it a reasonable expectation that the P8 currently in hand has all the design q's of the completed P8 development? ie it is the same as expected production units were to be.

Graeme
 
Is it a reasonable expectation that the P8 currently in hand has all the design q's of the completed P8 development? ie it is the same as expected production units were to be.

Graeme
I would think so. It does need the rear ride height sorting out. As can be seen from the first drawing, getting the right stance makes a big difference to the looks. (Maybe the load leveling strut needs replacing.) These drawings are only 1 - 6 of 72, I'll bet the remaining 66 (!!!) drawings have useful information too.
I need to track down a CAD programme that can take a perspective drawing like these and generate orthographic images, or at least a set of 3D coordinates to inform a 3D printer and I could then print out a largish,(1:20 to 1:5 scale model)
Dimensionally it's not far off a Mercedes Benz W124 which is XJ6ish in size.
 
Colin, my information is that it was double wishbone front suspension, pivoting on fore-aft oriented steel tubes to allow for the longitudinal compliance necessary for good ride comfort, but with the tight tolerances laterally to keep good suspension geometry for good handling. Something of the philosophy of engineering embraced very, very much later in the FWD Lotus Elan and the McLaren F1. Wheelbase control isn't important for good dynamic steering geometry but precise control of track, camber and caster change is. Rover had this worked out on P6 and P7 prototypes. A google search for 'Rover P7' gives us Rare Rovers - P7

Of note on this page are the descriptions of the P7 prototypes, including the notes for P7A and very importantly the P7/C.
The P7/C Reg No: OXC831E having the P8 front and rear suspension and the V8.

The P7 page referenced above is from Rex's memory of the project, and is mostly accurate. We have some slightly more updated information, as well as a huge amount of pictures of OXC831E from the top and bottom which shed a lot of light on P8 development.

Where did you get the pictures from David?
 
Its a bit of a shame the drawings ar'nt dimensioned as that would allow recreation of panels and frame, something like a Churchhill frame would be cool too!
After the dissolution and sale of the Rover brand I am sure a lot of the hardware is still taking up shelf and building space somewhere probably still at Longbridge as it still seems a semi functional base for the current MG/Rover, not every thing was shipped to China.
 
I knew P7/4 was bought by the editor of Autocar but have never seen it so am assuming it was probably scrapped.
(No doubt the answer is in James Taylor's book but it's not to hand).
 
I knew P7/4 was bought by the editor of Autocar but have never seen it so am assuming it was probably scrapped.
(No doubt the answer is in James Taylor's book but it's not to hand).

It wasn't scrapped. It's still around, and undergoing restoration. We had it on the RSR stand at the NEC a couple of years ago.
 
The P7 page referenced above is from Rex's memory of the project, and is mostly accurate. We have some slightly more updated information, as well as a huge amount of pictures of OXC831E from the top and bottom which shed a lot of light on P8 development.

Where did you get the pictures from David?
They are on the Hooniverse site in an article on the Daimler 250V8 V.I.S.I.T: 1963 Daimler V8 250
Rover 1 is my alter ego on those sites, I got them off James Shaw following a discussion on the AROnline site after this image was posted
http://www.shawbits.co.uk/images/p8psf.jpg on this pagehttp://www.aronline.co.uk/concepts/concepts-and-prototypes/concepts-rover-p8p9/

I would really like to see those pictures on the P7. I am fascinated with the history of Rover around this time and I'm keenly aware that many of the people involved at the time, and their memories, are disappearing from among us. There is, I think, no copyright issue with the dissemination of the images due to their age, if they become in the public domain with no attempt to profit from their dissemination.

James Shaw thought that Heritage had all of Fisher Pressed Steel's drawings in storage, he didn't think they'd been discarded.
 
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Its a bit of a shame the drawings ar'nt dimensioned as that would allow recreation of panels and frame, something like a Churchhill frame would be cool too!
After the dissolution and sale of the Rover brand I am sure a lot of the hardware is still taking up shelf and building space somewhere probably still at Longbridge as it still seems a semi functional base for the current MG/Rover, not every thing was shipped to China.
A good CAD programme should be able to take the scale of something on the drawing and use that known measurement to extrapolate the other dimensions.

For example, those headlights are PAR46 ( 146mm - 5, 3/4 ") sealed beams or their halogen semi-sealed equivalent as also fitted to P6s. Those wheels are 14" diameter as on P6s and SD1s and their apparent size 'going back' into the image is governed by the rules of perspective.
 
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Given that the car was shelved at the last minute there was likely to have been a workshop manual at the ready for dealerships, I am sure there would be a bunch of info in that the same as the P6 manual, would love to look thru the factory and see whats archived there.
 
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