retorque head?

Mick Rae

Mick Rae

Active Member
My water leak has improved, but its still there - I have now eliminated all the multiple leaks there was, and all I can now find is a sheen of coolant along the left side of the head gasket (its not coming from the side covers, its very slight, but between head and block).
The previous owner had quite recently done the head gasket I think. I believe this to be the case based upon there being a top end gasket set minus cam cover and HG in the boot in pristine condition. The small bit of the HG thats visible looks newish also, and I recall them saying it was all done. Do you think It'd be worthwhile checking the torque on the bolts? If so, is it just a case or removing cam cover, and then in correct order checking the torque of each? Do you back off and then torque up, or just set wrench and go for it? I presume that as its OHC there isnt any other adjustment needed if indeed the head does need a nip up?
getting fed up with this water leak now, as the rest of everything is so perfect, but not ready to chuck in the towel!
thanks
Mick
 
I think you're probably alright with re-torquing the head bolts. My guess is the sheen of coolant you;re seeing is coolant from the original leak that's leached into the small gap around the edge of the head gasket.

I've had similar stuff happen in the past as coolant doesn't evaporate like water, It drove me crazy too. I would suggest a good flushing with brake cleaner to clean out any remaining and drive for a while before you re-torque the head.
 
thanks sdibbers! And what a coincidence - was just watching a YouTube of a TC start up by an sdibbers, which I presume has to be one and the same!
 
quick additional question - manual says 55lb or 70lb, for all steel and steel/asbestos gasket respectively. Ive no idea whats fitted (the little I can see is black, and some sort of composite it would appear), or what is available these days - anyone know what the torque for 'the gaskets available these days' would be? Or should I see if all seems to be around the 55 mark and just assume that's correct (I hater following up previous owners work for these very reasons!).
 
Yours is a late 2200, I believe, so 70 lb ft. The pure steel gasket was used in very early cars, steel/asbestos for later 2000s for which nowadays a composite gasket is probably supplied. 2200s certainly use composite gaskets nowadays, and maybe always did.
 
Ah that's grand John, much obliged. It would have been changed last couple of years of previous owners time with the car. Interestingly he did say there was a water leak he couldn't find, I wonder if its possible he did the wrong torque setting - will find out at weekend I guess. Its all fun and games with a new classic, trying to figure out what's right and what's not, and when you are pretty inexperienced at a lot of things like myself, can be a bit daunting at times - but the Rover is just running so sweet in all ways bar the leak, it would be great if this was a cure. If not, then time for some professional attention I think - I've exhausted my abilities with the heater matrix replacement ;)
 
Mick Rae said:
quick additional question - manual says 55lb or 70lb, for all steel and steel/asbestos gasket respectively. Ive no idea whats fitted (the little I can see is black, and some sort of composite it would appear), or what is available these days - anyone know what the torque for 'the gaskets available these days' would be? Or should I see if all seems to be around the 55 mark and just assume that's correct (I hater following up previous owners work for these very reasons!).
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If you have the remainder of the gasket set in the boot, do some googling, find the type of gasket that way.
Don't loosen the head, just tighten in sequence.
If it still weeps and does not leak into a cylinder I would throw in a bottle of K Seal before I opened my wallet to pay someone to tear it down.
K-Seal: Permanent Repair for Coolant, Head Gasket & Radiator Leaks
 
sadly the remains of the gaskets in the boot have no clues, just an assortment of card gaskets. The previous owner was fond of a 'de-coke' apparently, and was a relatively regular HG changer according to the middle-man who picked it up for me.
As a 'may as well', iIstopped on way home and put in a bottle of this K-Seal stuff...........who knows eh, never been too keen on these things, but worth a go. Will still check the torque on the head bolts also though, I am suspicious. Watching the overflow bottle now as it cools down to see if it passes my pen mark.
thanks all, much obliged to you for your suggestions as ever!
 
head gasket changes are always a time where care needs to be taken. correct gasket. correct torque tightening sequence and load. ( often 2-3 stages) plus ensuring CYL head and block faces are level and flat ! many have added a very thin layer of sealer when having issues .such as Hylomar gasket sealer. I am informed even Rolls Royce has used that as well as racing teams. check for uneven surface on block head faced and CYL head surface . thin line .scratch can allow fluids under extreme pressure and heat to migrate along such path(s) and stain edge of a gasket. bear in mind head bolts stretch when used and if repeated use can reach fail point ! many modern head bolts are designed as 'one use' and torqued to almost yield point and bolt not fit for re-use. one system in use now is applying 2 or three torquing stages to allow gasket compression and then add a half turn more. its alway best to check manufacturers process where possible.
 
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Mick Rae said:
sadly the remains of the gaskets in the boot have no clues, just an assortment of card gaskets. The previous owner was fond of a 'de-coke' apparently, and was a relatively regular HG changer according to the middle-man who picked it up for me.
As a 'may as well', iIstopped on way home and put in a bottle of this K-Seal stuff...........who knows eh, never been too keen on these things, but worth a go. Will still check the torque on the head bolts also though, I am suspicious. Watching the overflow bottle now as it cools down to see if it passes my pen mark.
thanks all, much obliged to you for your suggestions as ever!
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Don't make an instant judgement, let it settle down over a few days. If there is a major compression leak then you may still need to remove the head and skim surfaces, but if we are looking at a coolant leak that is escaping with 15 psi behind it, then there is hope.
 
I personally always retorque a cylinder head stone cold after the first heat cycle, and again after 100 miles or so. You will often get a surprisingly large "nip-up" after the first heat cycle with a new gasket, less so at 100 miles. I don't back them off to redo, just nip up as they are.

I'm paranoid about the 'warpability' of alloy heads on iron blocks, so am a bit OCD about observing the correct torque settings!
 
Thanks Michael, that's interesting to hear about you not backing off before nipping up to correct torque. Some folks say you have to in order to get over the 'stiction' and get a true torque reading, others like yourself say not to bother. I have in the past always backed off (though cast iron heads, never had an alloy head before), but am reticent this time as the gasket has been there a 1000 miles or even a little more, so last thing I want to do is 'disturb' it in any way, hence will I reckon do it your way.
I spent time last night wiping it, and running, and wiping, and it would appear (maybe) that the weep is from the rear of the head gasket area - but hard to be exact as mentioned above, coolant seems to track everywhere. So long as nothing disastrous happens (and I cant see anything stripping at 70lb/ft), worst outcome is no difference, best is that my weep is cured. I will sort this out at the weekend and report back! My new style rubber cam cover gasket arrived this morning from Wins, so nothing to stop me having a look.
Interesting, and I may be wishful thinking, but it did seem to me that the loss of water was significantly less after the K-seal, so intend to keep running the car daily to see if that also does its thing as suggested by Cobraboy above (I'm sorry, I do not know peoples real names!) - hoping that over a few good runs it gets to the troublesome area and does its thing - if so, I will be converted! I ran a Ford Escort years back that probably had as much Radweld in it as coolant by the time I scrapped it, but back then, these were 250 quid cars to be used and abused as a teenager - boy do I wish I had kept them all in a shed now!
 
There's also a steel cover plate at the back of the head, with a gasket to seal it. Might be worth seeing if the leak is coming from there.
 
Mick Rae said:
Thanks Michael, that's interesting to hear about you not backing off before nipping up to correct torque. Some folks say you have to in order to get over the 'stiction' and get a true torque reading, others like yourself say not to bother. I have in the past always backed off (though cast iron heads, never had an alloy head before), but am reticent this time as the gasket has been there a 1000 miles or even a little more, so last thing I want to do is 'disturb' it in any way, hence will I reckon do it your way.
I spent time last night wiping it, and running, and wiping, and it would appear (maybe) that the weep is from the rear of the head gasket area - but hard to be exact as mentioned above, coolant seems to track everywhere. So long as nothing disastrous happens (and I cant see anything stripping at 70lb/ft), worst outcome is no difference, best is that my weep is cured. I will sort this out at the weekend and report back! My new style rubber cam cover gasket arrived this morning from Wins, so nothing to stop me having a look.
Interesting, and I may be wishful thinking, but it did seem to me that the loss of water was significantly less after the K-seal, so intend to keep running the car daily to see if that also does its thing as suggested by Cobraboy above (I'm sorry, I do not know peoples real names!) - hoping that over a few good runs it gets to the troublesome area and does its thing - if so, I will be converted! I ran a Ford Escort years back that probably had as much Radweld in it as coolant by the time I scrapped it, but back then, these were 250 quid cars to be used and abused as a teenager - boy do I wish I had kept them all in a shed now!
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You might want to buy or borrow a coolant pressure test kit so you can test it when it is cold and at say double the normal pressure of 7 psi. Easier to find leaks when the coolant will not drop onto hot metallic surfaces.

I had a Subaru brumby and I could not find the coolant leak that it clearly had. A mechanic hooked a pressure tester on and pumped air into the radiator, and then it was easy to see when it was not just seeping out onto the block under the air filter housing.

https://www.harborfreight.com/radiator-pressure-tester-kit-63862.html
 
first observation with cam cover off. All looks nice and clean and in good nick - but, down the left side of the camshaft, under the oil remaining in there, there is a bit of sludge. Not mayo, hard to describe, other than thick sludge. Not huge amounts, but just wondering if this is normal (I am cleaning it out regardless). Just never seen this before - the engine runs perfectly, so a bit strange Id think?
edit - cleaned it out, engine had stood for a fair time before i got it, i am thinking this grey goo might just be the effect of condensation getting in there, many starts without getting to temp, and settled out, trapped on left hand side perhaps - the oil on the right is clean, as is the oil on the dip stick. Just curious if this is common in these engines.
Oh well, head bolts all turned about 1/8th of a turn to 70lb, so i dont reckon thats the problem - seemed a very wee amount, some turn for sure, but nothing significant (in my uneducated eyes at least) - pleased they were all about the same. Cleaned up the sludge and a new cam cover gasket, then go for another drive I guess and see whats what. But really wish I had not seen this sludge, it causes me concern..........................
 
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Harvey - many thanks, makes sense, it had that greyish appearance. Not good of course, but hey man, first time I ever felt a bit relieved to hear bearing wear! Oil pressure seems fine, 50lb at all times, not brilliant but not enough to scare me yet, no knocking etc. Just real pleased that its something that is 'normal for old engine'. Although its only done 40K miles, it has been sat a lot, possible with manky old oil, which I guess would hasten bearing wear perhaps? Anyway, something for another day, thank you so much for putting my mind at rest.
 
You would probably find more of the same in the sump. Luckily enough, at the first signs of trouble the sump is easy to remove, and the bearings can be replaced with the engine in-situ.
 
Ha - you make it sound so easy! I suppose everything is if you know what you are doing and are experienced - I am so far off that description! Nonetheless, the advice you all give is amazing, and has helped me get a lot done already - I am under no illusions what waking up an old car means, and this is the hard bit - turning a running car into a perfectly running and reliable car. Ah well, Rome no built in one day! But this car is worth it, and I guess a few mechanical niggles is a damn site easier to deal with than a load of corrosion.
many thanks all
Mick
 
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