Rob's long term Supercharging project

1396midget

Well-Known Member
#1
Hello :)

First up, this project is unlikely to take off instantly. So I made this thread as a space where I can throw all my thoughts and bits and pieces about supercharging in. Any comments at all are welcome.

The long term plan is to supercharge the P6, the challenge being to keep it all under the standard body (particularly bonnet). Oh, and with a tight budget. If you've seen the K-midget build on my site, then you'll know my dad and I are not scared of a bit of fabrication, only really drawing the line at milling and possibly ally welding (though we've not tried properly!) Therefore anything should be possible.

I'm looking to replicate something along the lines of this
in an MGB (spotted by TokyoP6B as well!) but with a charge cooler and the charger the other way up, like it is in a supercharged jag.

I spent a while researching FI when I looked at supercharging the A series, and hopefully some of it will help here. As always, any comments, discussion, advice, etc is welcome!

Cheers!

Rob
 
#3
That looks like a very tightly squeezed inlet manifold! But not too far off height wise. You might have more difficulty creating the space at the lower front of the engine to accomodate the belt pully? If height did turn out to be a problem with that set up it will only be marginal and I have a photo hidden away of the bonnet scoop on a 3500EI that looks just made to cover that! So you could have a genuine Rover item on the bonnet - albeit one that nobody's seen since 1971!

I can't see you easily fitting a charge cooler in. The blower has to be that way round to allow drive, and there isn't going to be any space between the ass of the blower and the bulkhead. About the best you might manage is to replumb the cooling system so that the inlet manifold gets coldest available water. Then you have to take the hot water from the heads away to somewhere else. Or you could sacrifice the heater..

I agree about the fuel injection. That's where we really need Rick - he was the expert and I'm not sure we have anyone on the forum now who can fill that particular set of shoes.

Chris
 

1396midget

Well-Known Member
#4
I reckon I 'might' be able to fit a water-air charge cooler, and agree that fuel injection is the way forwards. I'd love to do a proper old skool supercharge with SUs , but there just isn't enough space.

When I said the supercharger the other way up, I should have been more clear, I meant like this:



it's going to be HOT. I thought if I could get something that looks like (but isn't) a heater matrix in the manifold somewhere, something flattish that would be full of water, an electric pump and a second radiator just behind the V8 one, I could have a pretty decent stab at cooling the inlet charge.

The air-water-air charge coolers are apparently more efficient that an air-air, but obviously much more difficult to make, but a lot smaller. There's not enough space in the front of a P6 for a big air-air intercooler, but there is for a rover metro radiator (that I just happen to have!)

Could always go without a cooler, but that seems engineeringly unsatisfactory, if you see what I mean, in for a penny in for a pound etc!

Belt is an issue, I'll have to look how some of the cobra guys have done it, as I don't think I'd get away with just a V-belt!
 

Tom W

Active Member
#5
This sounds interesting.

If you're planning on using a Rootes type blower, you'll need intercooling of some sort. They're not very efficient and generate lots of heat. Without an intercooler, you may not make much extra power after removing the parasitic loss from driving the charger and retarding the ignition timing to prevent detonation. Advantages of a Rootes is they're cheaply available 2nd hand in a variety of sizes, and ate robust. BMW minis, Mercs and Jags are all UK sources. A Kenne Bell screw type supercharger solves the heat and efficiency problems, and fits in a similar size space, but they're expensive and not readily available 2nd hand. For economy, you'll probably want to incorporate a bypass past the supercharger for low revs.

I have a supercharged Jag, if you need access to one to measure bits and see how it all goes together.

Another (controversial) thought. Why not bin the Rover V8 and stick in a complete supercharged Jag V8? There's people making manual conversion kits and getting it all running out of the Jag is relatively straight fwd as you don't need to worry about the complex network from the donor car. The Jag engine is compact, certainly shorter than the RV8, though possibly a tad wider due to being DOHC, though the standard manifolds do tuck under the heads so they aren't the widest point. A complete tatty XJR is not a lot for all the bits you need, and you'd save on the cost of having to rebuild the Rover with stronger internals and reduced compression. 370bhp, straight from the box, tempting.

Tom
 

sowen

Active Member
#7
Interesting project you're making for yourself :D

Do you have any other criteria other than keeping everything packaged under the standard bonnet, such as capacity or even alternative v8 powerplant, be it Ford or Chevy? Do you want the classic supercharger sunk in the v between the heads or would you have it mounted elsewhere in the engine bay? Have you got a particular supercharger in mind, like the Eaton M90 or M112, or another derivative? Have you also considered the cost of insurance when fitting the supercharger, my insurance went from £130 to almost £600 just by fitting a turbo!

I've heard of issues mounting Eaton superchargers low down in the v, in that they give uneven distribution of air, leading to one end of the engine running rich and the other running lean.

How about using a standard Rover injection manifold and mounting a chargecooler on the intake side, and mounting the supercharger on the other side above the rocker cover? I have the complete inlet manifold, chargecooler, intake hoses, throttle body with bypass and Eaton M90 off a Jaguar that could be the ideal basis to build around bought cheaply off ebay!

I've also read about using the air con to give the cold part of the chargecooler, maybe worth doing some research there?
 

mrtask

Well-Known Member
#9
I have a photo hidden away of the bonnet scoop on a 3500EI that looks just made to cover that! So you could have a genuine Rover item on the bonnet - albeit one that nobody's seen since 1971!
That'll be a fun project! Chris, don't be a tease, could you please let us all see the photo that you mention? :!: :?:
 

1396midget

Well-Known Member
#10
most people said:
interesting.
Glad you think so!

If you're planning on using a Rootes type blower, you'll need intercooling of some sort.
That's exactly what I thought.

I'd be going for an eaton I think because of budget.

I have a supercharged Jag, if you need access to one to measure bits and see how it all goes together.
OOh I might take you up on that if I get further than planning :)

Why not bin the Rover V8 and stick in a complete supercharged Jag V8?
Incredibly tempting. And may well be driven by insurance, which is one of the first things. I'll need to ring them up and see what they say. I'm haven't got my heart set on a rover v8, but in a way it would be 'neater', keeping it in the family etc.

Do you want the classic supercharger sunk in the v between the heads or would you have it mounted elsewhere in the engine bay?
Mounting it - anywhere'd be fine, but I don't know if there's enough space for a single biggie that isn't in the V , and I've discounted two smaller ones (even though that'd be really cool) because of efficiency things.

the cost of insurance
this might well be the biggest spanner in the works. Mind, the K-midget is insured with everything declared for £230 ish - that's with a 30%bhp hike (plus all the suspension and things) P6 currently costs a massive £62 to insure.

I've heard of issues mounting Eaton superchargers low down in the v, in that they give uneven distribution of air, leading to one end of the engine running rich and the other running lean.
I've heard that as well, from RPI I think. However, they sell lots of expensive NA tuning bits, or maybe I'm a bit cynical.

How about using a standard Rover injection manifold and mounting a chargecooler on the intake side, and mounting the supercharger on the other side above the rocker cover? I have the complete inlet manifold, chargecooler, intake hoses, throttle body with bypass and Eaton M90 off a Jaguar that could be the ideal basis to build around bought cheaply off ebay!
that's interesting. I'll have to look around for bits.

I've also read about using the air con to give the cold part of the chargecooler, maybe worth doing some research there?
I hadn't, so yes, it is.

Thanks for the pointers chaps, quite pleased that you've not all gone oooh that's a bad idea... 8)
 

sowen

Active Member
#11
When I put the v8 in my Land Rover they said "ooh that sounds good" and only charged me an admin fee to change the details, yet I had to cancel my insurance and find a specialist who would cover the non-standard engine swap on the P6. Supercharging a Rover v8 as opposed to fitting an alternative supercharged v8 could possibly give wildly different insurance quotes.
 
#12
Hasn't our American freind with the Ford V8 engined 2000 done effectively that - stick a Jag V8 in a P6? Or have I got the engines muddled up? If so we have existing experience on the width issue. The key area is across the top of the heads, as the inner wing in that area is pretty well fixed by having the springs right hard up on the other side of it. At the cank level you have fractionally more room for manoevre with a V8 shell as the chassis rails are further apart than the 4 cylinder.

Chris
 

Tom W

Active Member
#13
The Jag V8 is Jag's own design, not a Ford engine, though it did find it's way back across the pond to appear in some Lincolns. It's also been used in Range Rovers and Range Rover sports, since Land Rover was sold by BMW, so there's a tenuous Rover connection there.
 
#14
rockdemon said:
looks like it'd fit apart from the exhaust manifold... which i'm sure you could get round :)
The manifolds in that MGB in the photo are the later RV8 models that exit through the inner wings. The standard MGB manifolds go between the block and chassis legs like the ones on a V8 P6 and of course tubular versions are available to replace the standard cast iron ones.
 

1396midget

Well-Known Member
#15
after some epic lunch time googling (ooerr) over the last couple of days I reckon I'm going to stick with the Rover V8. Jag engine looks megacomplex to wire in and with not a straightforward gearbox option. I've done wiring for the K-midget and don;t want to have to fight that hard again. Standalone Megasquirt or similar looks a lot easier.

Bigger v8 and rebuild with SC in mind, or fit to current 3.5? How strong's the bottom end? I can find evidence of main bearing cap movement but that seems to be an rpm problem rather than a power problem? 3.5 seems to be the strongest of the bunch with respect to liners and bits. And, I've already got one..

I forgot to mention I have an LT77 that's ready (ish) to go in, so I guess that will be stage 1. Though I still have to work out how the clutch bits will fit - not a lot of space round the back of that cylinder head!!

also, I'll leave this here:

http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8.html

written for turbotchargers (fishy) but equally applicable to supercharging.

I think my plan of action will be gearbox first, then some kind of injection system so I can get used to how that all works on the V8, then onwards and upwards!

Also, anyone thought of using the auto part of the rad as an oil cooler? Perhaps the flow's not enough.
 

1396midget

Well-Known Member
#17
hope it works. I've left the auto gearbox in for as long as possible (just over a year) to see if I can get a liking for it, and I can't. Looking at the threads on here it seems like a pretty good one, no slipping and no leaks, fluid stays nice and red, etc so if anyone's in the market for a decent working BW35 in the next 6 months or so then let me know.

I don't want it sitting about after the manual conversion because it'll just get leaky, much rather it went and was used.
 

colnerov

Well-Known Member
#18
1396midget said:
Also, anyone thought of using the auto part of the rad as an oil cooler? Perhaps the flow's not enough.
HI, I wouldn't. They probably won't take the pressure, Because autobox doesn't pump it
there at any real pressure it just circulates it.They have been known to leak. They won't
dissapate enough heat, I think you are going to need a 13 row. And you don't want any
more heat going into the water system....Other than that!! :wink:

Colin
 

colnerov

Well-Known Member
#19
1396midget said:
hope it works. I've left the auto gearbox in for as long as possible (just over a year) to see if I can get a liking for it, and I can't. Looking at the threads on here it seems like a pretty good one, no slipping and no leaks, fluid stays nice and red, etc so if anyone's in the market for a decent working BW35 in the next 6 months or so then let me know.

I don't want it sitting about after the manual conversion because it'll just get leaky, much rather it went and was used.
Good plan makes it easier to sell if the buyer can see that it is a good one.

Colin
 

1396midget

Well-Known Member
#20
colnerov said:
1396midget said:
Also, anyone thought of using the auto part of the rad as an oil cooler? Perhaps the flow's not enough.
HI, I wouldn't. They probably won't take the pressure, Because autobox doesn't pump it
there at any real pressure it just circulates it.They have been known to leak. They won't
dissapate enough heat, I think you are going to need a 13 row. And you don't want any
more heat going into the water system....Other than that!! :wink:

Colin

orlrite then, that'll be a no then :)
 
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