Battery not charging.

The Rovering Member

The Rovering Member

Well-Known Member
Our 2200 was brought home by the AA the other night as the battery stopped charging & everything was dying away. There's no ignition light showing at all (bulb o.k) though I noticed the ammeter needle was sticking & when I took the dashclock front off to check, the light came on when I turned the key & the ammeter showed charge when I started her (light went out). But not for long. I also noticed the oil-gauge was hardly moving with the engine running. (plenty of oil & the pressure light goes out o.k) Is the printed circuit board or the oil/amps clock liable to be at fault somehow? The connections are all in place on the alternator & it was reconditioned a couple of months ago.



Edited By The Rovering Member on 1216652764
 
From the 3500 Repair Operation Manual...

"The ignition warning light is connected in series with the alternator field circuit. Bulb failure would prevent the alternator charging, except at very high speeds."

I don't have a wiring diagram for 4-pots, but probably the same? For "bulb failure" you could substitute "bulb loose" as Dave suggests..

But assuming its not loose, I'd start by cleaning up the gauge and PCB connections. If still no joy, you could try swapping the gauge unit for a known good one.
 
Is that right? It didn't seem to be loose though I used the car today & the light is working again though the ammeter still doesn't show much charge. Have to see how things go. The temperature's fluctuating too. We had a stuck thermostat so I took it out, ran it & she ran cool so fitted a new one & the Missus took her down to Southampton & the temp was high green/red on the motorway. She checked the water & it was up. Checked again the next morning & got 4 litres in. On the way home temp fine then she started losing the electrics. AA to the rescue.
Today I took the car to work. Ignition light working, temp up to red. Got to work o.k. Took the thermostat out again before I came home & the temp went up to the red then down to 85 then back up after a while. Heater blowing hot then cold. Must be an airlock in there but theres nothing in the expansion tank so I don't know where the waters going if it's disappearing.
 
First off if you get to a really low volts situation you could expect the gauges to misbehave as the voltage stabiliser at the rear of the instrument panel won't be able to cope. So don't put too much faith in what the gauges are telling you if you really are down near flat battery. What is it exactly that makes you think you have a charging fault? Not enough to turn the starter? Even slower than normal indicators? I'm a bit concerned that you are experiencing your second set of charging problems in a short time, which implies that whatever caused the fault the first time wasn't cured by whatever you did to put it right first time. The replacement alternator could have cured a sympton - not whatever caused the alternator to fail in the first place.

The fact you are still driving the car suggests the fault is not very serious. Could it be you have a very heavy current discharge somewhere? I'd start by having a look at the fuseboard in the N/S glovebox and see if there is any evidence of overheating anywhere. Prime suspect would be the headlamp fuse but it could be others. After that you really need to gather some real information. Sounds like you need true readings of current output of the alternator (it ought to be very small if the car is happy, increasing as you turn things on) and battery voltage, plus I think I might want to do a heavy current discharge test on the battery.

Chris
 
The wife stopped at the services on the return journey to fiddle with the radio fuse as the radio was intermittent (we have occasional contact problems with the fusebox). When she'd done it the car wouldn't start until she put the booster pack on it, then further down the road all the lights started dimming & the ammeter was showing no charge as well as the radio cutting out when the brake lights or indicators were operated. This happened to the car a few years ago (broken alternator bracket) when the car died completely, so she knew what to do this time. Stop & call the AA. We assumed from that there was a charging problem. I was on the M4 while she was on the M3 so we were discussing it. The alternator was re-conned in the first place because the light wasn't coming on until the engine was running.
How do you go about taking the discharge readings?
 
Hold on..........aren't the alternator and water pump driven by the same belt ? Could this explain the overheating AND the lack of charge?
A loose or slipping belt could account for both of these symptoms so I'd give that a look.

Dick West
 
A battery discharge tester is basically a means of putting a short across the battery with a shunt ammeter to see how well the battery survives the experience. It's about the only way of flushing out internal problems with the battery, such as buckled plates or bad connections between cells that don't show up when not under load. You ought to be able to buy one from a decent car accessory shop, but they do take a bit of bottle to use.... If your a bit timid putting them on you get a few sparks and they get very hot very quickly!

Dick is right about the fan belt, but I'd hope either you or the AA would have checked that by now. I'm hoping the water temperature issue is actually a gauge with low volts issues! That or the car is trying to tell you it wants abit of a rest in the garage for a while!

My favourite would still be the fuseboard. There have been some extensive notes on here recently, so try your hand at the search facility. In particular I'd want to verify you have the correct imperial size fuses in all the holders and not the close, but not close enough, metric equivalents (they are just a tad short). They would definitely give the symptoms your wife describes with the radio. In the process you ought to spot any signs of overheating.

Chris



Edited By chrisyork on 1216748703
 
Well, The light has gone out again so I just put a bulb to earth from the ignition light feed on the printed circuit board & it lit. The bulb is o.k so it seems to be the bulb holder at fault. Tapping or wiggling it doesn't make a difference which I would've thought it would do if it was a dry joint. Anyway, I'll have to take the dash assembly out which I can't do in the street. I'll have to get her up the workshop. The alternator moves a little at the rear which for some reason has always been a problem with this car despite repeatedly tightening it but the belt is taut with no indication of slipping. By the way, what is the plastic tie-bar (566797) from the bottom of the alternator housing to the support bracket for? I must admit I left it off when I refitted the alternator last time as it's a pain to fit with the radiator in place & I couldn't see the point of it as it just seems to connect one fixed point to another fixed point. Is it because of the rubber mounts between the two brackets? The moving alternator problem was there with the tie-bar in place too.
I also just got 4 litres of water in through the top heater hose so we'll see what happens if the water vanishes without filling the expansion tank. I sort of suspect the headgasket as she's a bit (white) smokey at times & the running isn't all it could be. No sign of oil in the water. This is a gratis stopgap engine (2000SC) until the original's rebuilt so I'm not over-worried about it but it's inconvenient of course as the cars a daily driver.
The fuses are all exactly the right length for the holders & cleaning them usually solves any connection problems for a while.
 
I haven't checked on that. The bulb holder was indeed a little loose on the return side which a little solder sorted though the light was still intermittent. The return wire was a bit dodgy down on the small spade connector for the alternator as well so re-doing the connection seems to have sorted the problem. I lost the panel lights along the way too which turned out to be an intermittent fuse & the rheostat switch. I replaced the fuse & bypassed the switch. What does the small lucas panel connected to the rheostat by red wires do? I cut this out of the loop long ago during previous panel light problems & only saw where the wires led yesterday. I was trying to bypass the switch then too but of course you do it on the circuit board. I was surprised when the switch still worked after I cut & joined what I then thought was the supply. :D
Also replaced the clock with one I bought at the Enfield pageant last year. The bloke swore it worked & happily, it does.
 
don't know if this might be anything to cause your problems but have you checked the drivers footwell under the carpet there is an isolated (from the body) terminal where the cable from the battery attaches then goes to the starter (through the body) and two brown wires go up to behind the dash for supply to the rest of the electrics (don't know if the smaller brown wire charges the battery or not), may pay to check that connections are secure and plastic/nylon insulator is not allowing earthing at this point. I just noticed this terminal the other day when looking for a battery supply to tap into for the electric fans.

Regards,
 
Yes, I was aware of this junction but I haven't checked it as yet so good call & thanks for that. The lights been behaving itself for a while so I haven't been messing with it as a result.
 
Well, we've been charging the battery weekly recently & she's soldiering on but the battery has lost it's green spot & it won't take much use of the lights now so we really should replace it I think. What are the relevant crank hours...etc for the P6 4-pots? Has anyone any experience of Halfords batteries. A couple of guys on the P4 site rate them but I've checked other forums & the concensus seems to be pretty mixed, a lot of them going flat & having to be changed under warranty (4 year) & others rating them. A calcium battery listed on Halfords site for the P6 is £97 which I baulk at, whereas our local factor have them listed for the car & they're £63 with a 3-year warranty, presumably not calcium. Maybe with a new battery any charging/running issues will be easier to locate.
 
Does the battery get it's green spot back after charging ?

You don't want to buy a new battery if the fault is that it's not getting enough charge or there is a fault causing it to discharge whilst not in use

Perhaps a visit to a specialist to check the battery with a discharge tester and to test the charge rate would be a good start
 
I think your problem sounds like a weak alternator or some poor connections somewhere. I haven't read every message in this string so dont know if you've had a voltmeter across the battery but if you do that with the engine running you should be charging at somewhere around 14 volts possibly slightly under but normally slightly over, then if you switch on a few things like lights & heater etc. your voltage should still be somewhere near you may need a few revs just to get the alternator charging. If the voltage is in the low 13s or less then that would point towards alternator trouble. I would reccommend giving the battery a good trickle charge & letting it rest before you do it.

If it does turn out that you need a new battery then I would reccommend BOSCH as we switched to stocking their truck batteries about 6 or 7 years ago & in that time have only had 2 or 3 back under warranty. The trouble is they are a shade on the pricey side certain batteries 627s & 629s which are very large truck batteries were ridiculous money from bosch so we started keeping them in another "good" make & we've been sending them back on piece, so have gone back to bosch.
I put a Bosch battery on my P6 & also on my Volvo & the Rover had stood for 11 months untouched with the battery still connected & all I did was prime the fuel pump & it fired straight up.

Regards Colin
 
DaveHerns said:
Does the battery get it's green spot back after charging ?
Click to expand...
No, not any more. It's black though white is supposed to indicate that it's dead. The alternator was serviced this year. I bought the parts myself (from JCR supplies who are 5 minutes drive from my home. I didn't know they were on ebay Richard) & watched while our local auto-electrician put them in. He only wanted the price of a couple of pints. I will put a meter across the battery, I'll see if I can get up the workshop tomorrow. I'll also check on the price of a Bosch. Thanks.
Good blog by the way Richard. I also make a practice of reversing one ramp so the car can't roll anywhere though I have a spanking pair of adjustable height, detachable ramp/stands which hold the cars very securely indeed.
 
Good blog , indeed .I didn't realise it was that easy to change the De Dion gaiter ,I thought it would involve removing the elbow and drive shaft
 
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