Checking tank ventilation

oport

Member
Hello,

since i am still hunting my perhaps fuel related problem i have one question regarding tank ventilation: As far as i understood the ventilation is achieved by a hose running from the tank upwards ending somewhere in the rear window area. Is there any chance to check this for blockages without removing the tank (which is a project in itself because of the rear axle)?

CU Olaf
 
Hi Olaf,

you can reach the tank ventilation lines if you remove the rear left hand wing.

As for the tank itself, it is inside the boot, behind the rear seats and under the rear screen. You can see it if you remove the hardboard cover at the front of the boot. Nothing to do with the rear suspension.
 
Demetris wrote,..
you can reach the tank ventilation lines if you remove the rear left hand wing

Hello Demetris,

I thought that the vent tube was in behind the vinyl covered panel rather than behind the wing.. :?

Hello Olaf,

With the hardboard cover within the boot popped out of the way, you will see a vent tube attached to the top of the tank. I would have thought though that if there was some form of blockage in the vent tube, then pressure would build within the tank, much like in many modern cars. In such a case, when you lift the filler cap, would you not hear the tell tale hiss?

Ron.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Hello Demetris,

I thought that the vent tube was in behind the vinyl covered panel rather than behind the wing.. :?

Hi Ron,

thank you for reminding me of this, actually they are behind both the wing and D panel!
 
Thank you guys, I will check this through the boot then. And you are right, normally you would expect some air audibly coming out of the filler cap if a vaccuum was build up. Last time i monitored the problem i did not check for that. But a blocked vent tube would match exactly the behaviour of the car, that is after 30-40 km with higher speeds the car starts to loose power and kind of stutters. When you stop for a minute, it runs well again. Seems to be fuel related, and since the pump is ok, and fuel lines seem to be clean of blockages a form of vaccuum built up in the tank would be a possible cause. I am just trying to rule out any possible things systematically.

CU Olaf
 
Ok, maybe I'm totally barking up the wrong tree and confusing with something else here, but here goes.

Doesn't/Can a blocked tank breather on a P6 have a peculiar symptom in that a heavy petrol smell can be smelt inside the car? I'm almost 100% certain when we had a heavy petrol smell inside the 2000Auto a number of times (it seemed to come and go every few months), it was suggested the breather pipe had blocked/kinked. It turned out it was indeed a kink in the breather pipe.

I don't remember having an apparent fuelling problem when the smell was in the car though, but we weren't driving it that fast at the time, and I was only 12!. Of course I assume a V8 is a bit thirstier, so might show up problems!

Oport's car isn't suffering the infamous "V8 fuel vaporisation" problem, is it?
 
On the face of it, since Olaf's car already has an adequate electric pump, fuel vaporisation ought not to be the problem. But the symptoms definitely sound very similar to this.

I recommend that Olaf continues to pursue the blocked tank vent theory to conclusion. The tank is easy to access once the vertical fibreboard panel at the rear of the luggage boot is removed, just a few self tapping screws. Find the plastic vent pipes disappearing up towards the left hand rear qaurter panel and either remove them at the tank end and check that you can blow up through them, or if necessary cut them at a convenient point and rejoin with a short piece of metal tube after the blow through test. The parts diagrams can be found at http://www.rover-classics.co.uk/images/reference/thumbnailv8/fuel/index.htm. I'm not sure which spec your car will be. There are two basic variants, one without any fuel spill return from the carburettors (ie any overflow goes to atmosphere in the engine bay) and one with a sealed system returning any overflow to the tank. The latter type is easy to spot because you have a thin "piggy back" tank mounted vertically behind the main tank, so that it is the first thing you see when accessing from the boot. If you have this system then there are an awful lot of breather pipes to block! If not the system is really very simple.

I can't remember whether the top of the breather pipes are to be seen inside the the base unit 1/4 panel - ie remove the padded finisher above the rear seats - or whether they are on the outside of the base unit underneath the bolt on external 1/4 panel. Either way to access you would start by removing the left hand seat base (pull firmly upwards at the front edge and then forwards) followed by removing the seat backrest (two self tapping screws at each side of the base of the backrest then push the backrest up). Then remove the soft trim panel to the 1/4 panel by tugging forward and out - it is secured on a lip and may well be fairly firmly glued as well. You can then see the base unit and if you need to go further then you can remove the external panel by undoing the obvious 4 screws that hold it onto the base unit. You would then be able to see both the inside and outside of the base unit in this area and the vent lines run vertically up to the roof level. http://www.rover-classics.co.uk/ima...8/bodywork/gallery/pages/Rear Quarter_jpg.htm and http://www.rover-classics.co.uk/images/reference/thumbnailv8/trim/pages/BC Post & Roof Trim_jpg.htm are helpful. You'll need some black silicon sealer to reassemble! Not a big job, perhaps 15 min to strip and 20 to reassemble?

Having proved your breather system then I think we are back to looking for issues giving a similar result to fuel starvation in the engine bay. Clearly things only go awry once everything is thoroughly warmed through, and return to normal after a bit of cooling. So I have a couple more suggestions. First make sure that your carburettors have the balck insulating block between them and the inlet manifold and are bolted up tight with paper gaskets at both joint faces for each carburettor - this to avoid heating the carburettor and to avoid drawing air into the maniflod after the carburettors. In a similar vein it might be worth renewing the valley gasket between the manifold and the heads. This is a rather larger job, but there are a number of different gasket types over the years, particularely for the later Range Rover engines, and if you have the wrong one it could displace the inlet manifold and allow it to draw air. Finally there has been an interesting post recently about coolant circulation within the inlet manifold - http://www.p6roc.co.uk/Forum/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5698 which is worth a read. If there were blockages within the manifold this could lead to overheating in the right area to cause your problems.

Hope this helps!

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
On the face of it, since Olaf's car already has an adequate electric pump, fuel vaporisation ought not to be the problem. But the symptoms definitely sound very similar to this.

Hmm, that was interesting, but sounds like a lot of work!:? I do wonder what the root cause is in Olaf's car!

Please pardon my ignorance, I know that an electric pump cures the vaporisation problem, but why is that so? :?
 
darth sidious wrote,..
I know that an electric pump cures the vaporisation problem, but why is that so?

Hello darth,

The mechanical pump cannot pump fuel vapour with anywhere near the same degree of efficiency that it can pump liquid fuel. The electric pumps on the other hand have no difficulty in this area.

I would also imagine that the location of the electric pump and the quantity of fuel that can be moved per unit time is also a defining factor here.

Ron.
 
chrisyork wrote,..
There are two basic variants, one without any fuel spill return from the carburettors (ie any overflow goes to atmosphere in the engine bay) and one with a sealed system returning any overflow to the tank. The latter type is easy to spot because you have a thin "piggy back" tank mounted vertically behind the main tank

Hello Chris,

This is interesting as my engine is fitted with HIF6 carburettors that utilise the spill return system back to the tank, and yet my fuel tank has no "piggy back" tank as you describe. In fact, I can honestly say I have never seen such an arrangement. According to the spare parts book, cars that were exported to Japan had such fuel tanks fitted, as did the U.S specification 3500 S. Of course the book may well be incorrect.

One area that has not been touched upon are the charcoal cannisters and their system of breathers, which I understand in some cases also link up with the fuel tank. At the very least the 1976 models and quite possibly the 1975 models too that were sold in Australia had such emission control devices fitted.

Olaf,...does your car have such emission control devices fitted?

Ron.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Hello darth,

The mechanical pump cannot pump fuel vapour with anywhere near the same degree of efficiency that it can pump liquid fuel. The electric pumps on the other hand have no difficulty in this area.

I would also imagine that the location of the electric pump and the quantity of fuel that can be moved per unit time is also a defining factor here.

Ron.

Thanks for that, Ron! So it's just really that an electric fuel pump can purge any vapour out of the fuel lines quite efficiently, whereas a mechanical one struggles?
 
Hello Darth,

The location of the mechanical pump and the route that the fuel line takes means that in the right conditions, fuel in the line prior to reaching the pump, should it vapourise puts the pump into difficulty. The mechanical pump has no problem with vapour ahead of it, provided it has an unbroken fuel stream behind it in which to draw through, but once there is vapour behind as well, hesitation, lurching and almost no power at all are typical.

Electric pumps are usually located either beneath the tank or away from the engine along wth their connecting fuel lines, plus given their design the possibility of vapourisation is no longer really a problem.

Ron.
 
Hi Ron

Interesting, I always understood that back to tank spill lines and the piggy back tank went together. Certainly I understood that at least the final years production from Wellington had them. What is your experience being closer to the cars in question?

Chris
 
Hello Chris,

I am sure that we can say,...when owning a Rover, life is never dull..there is always something to surprise... :eek:

My Rover is a suffix D, and a friend and fellow P6B owner has a suffix E, and both cars have fuel tanks of the same design. Just recently I dismantled a 1972 P6B that had been imported from the U.K, and it also had the same type of tank. Every other fuel tank that I have seen, be it in a car of in a wrecker's yard, they appeared just like mine.

I have only seen a couple of Rovers that have had the emission control devices fitted, charcoal cannisters and the like, but I must say that I have not seen the fuel tank in such cars. This coming Sunday is our annual display day, so at least one Rover should be present with charcaol cannisters fitted, so my homework will be to investage the fuel tank and report back what I find.

Ron.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Hello Darth,

The location of the mechanical pump and the route that the fuel line takes means that in the right conditions, fuel in the line prior to reaching the pump, should it vapourise puts the pump into difficulty. The mechanical pump has no problem with vapour ahead of it, provided it has an unbroken fuel stream behind it in which to draw through, but once there is vapour behind as well, hesitation, lurching and almost no power at all are typical.

Electric pumps are usually located either beneath the tank or away from the engine along wth their connecting fuel lines, plus given their design the possibility of vapourisation is no longer really a problem.

Ron.

Thnx! I can 'see' what you're saying. Makes sense to me now!
 
Hello Chris,

thanks for asking. I switched all my ignition cables against new magnecor stuff and checked the tank ventilation. I could not find anything suspicious there. Today i tested the car on the autobahn for approx. 40 km and i was not able to reproduce the problem. Either it is gone or i have to drive for a longer period. Since wintertime lies ahead, i think i will postpone further testing and investigation since next year.

Many thanks for your invaluable advice so far (i mean everybody here!)

CU Olaf
 
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