Just for starters

[Demetris]

My Rover has a thing with starters. When i first got it, it had the original inertia unit. It worked, albeit i could hear that it suffered some really hard kicks when the motor almost started, but not quite. Until one day the gear of the bendix drive broke.
I could not repair this starter because some clown had welded the securing circlip and washer.
I bought a rebuilt pre-engaged starter but it got lost in the post for over a month and while i was desperate i bought another inertia motor. It arrived the same day with the lost but found pre-engaged unit.
I fitted the pre-engaged unit that worked well for a couple of years. Then, all of a sudden i just got some clicking noises when i was turning the key. The solenoid worked, the ammeter was showing full discharge, like i had a short circuit, but not much else. Usually, after 3-4 times, the car started. When i got fed up with this situation, i cleaned and i installed the surplus inertia motor that i had. Again all was well for about a year, until i thought that the starter motor was getting lazy. So, out with the inertia, in with the pre-engaged unit that had been stripped and checked in the meantime (nothing suspicious to be found). This worked again for a few months, then it started the usual clicks, without starting the car. So, for one more time, i fitted back the inertia unit, that i had already rebuilt in the meantime with new bushes and new brushes. All was well, but i was itching to fix the pre-engaged unit. I looked in vain, but i could not find any fault. When tested out of the car, it always worked faultlessly. As a last resort, i fitted again new brushes and a new solenoid and left it alone.
In the meantime, the inertia starter was doing fine, despite that hard kicks it suffered from the engine. Until, last Monday, when i tried to start the car i heard some grinding noises. Despite this, the engine eventually started. Fearing the worst (broken teeth on ring gear, gearbox out job) i tried to inspect the ring gear from the timing apperture. All seemed well. A relief. So, it must be that :evil: starter again. When i removed it, i saw this. :shock:

The securing circlip has been flatened, the washer was probably somewhere in the depths of the bell housing and the bendix spring was just hanging there. For a while i wondered how on earth the engine started like this. Anyway, i fitted back the pre-engaged unit that i had prepared before, almost sure that it would be the end of my problems. Not a chance. The starter engages the ring gear and turns the engine, albeit slowly and with a grinding noise. To make matters more interesting, it still does the clicky thing sometimes. :evil:
Now, i have to take it out one more time, although i don't know what to look for now. Gear throw out? I think it is the only one that is left, or i am getting crazy.

 

[KiwiRover]

I have a vague feeling that the ring gears are different for the different starters, bevelled on opposite sides because the pinion engages from the other direction. This might cause problems but the pre-engaged starter 'clicky' noise is usually down to burnt contacts in the solenoid. The solenoid engages, making a click but the contacts are too burnt to carry enough current to turn the engine. This often tests ok on the bench because there is no load. Also, trying the starter a few times is usually enough to clear the contacts temporarily. Try replacing the solenoid.
The damaged inertia starter is most likely a result of the 'kick'.

 

[chrisyork]

I think Kiwi Rover is probably right in respect of the pre-engaged starter. Testing off-load is never a good indication as to what will happen on-load. By the same token the separate starter solenoid for the inertia starter should be suspect.

I'm very alarmed by the "grinding noise". Have you actually run the engine above idle after this noise first appeared? Your description sounds like not. I can only think of two possibilities for this noise (assuming it is not in the starter - and it happens with both, so unlikely). First is that the debris from the inertia starter has lodged somewhere unfortunate. Second is that the ring gear is separating from the flywheel. If it is the first I would be quite tempted to give the engine a good revving and see if you could dislodge the debris. Hard on the ear and on the nerves but not a major risk to components. If it is the ring gear or its securing bolts then the consequences could be more serious. Lets try and do a risk analysis as to what could go wrong. If nuts and bolts or ring gear are fouling on the bell housing I don't see anything disastrous. If they are going the other way and contacting the engine / back of sump, then there must be the potential for bolts to snag on the join between the two. That could bend the flywheel? If you were to inspect all the ring gear bolts by winding them past the starter motor aperture you could eliminate this option. (yes, I realise what I just asked - but you don't fancy dropping the box, do you?)

Going back to the starters again. If there are defects in the windings of the stator coils or of the armature it is very possible for the motor to check out OK electrically but not react correctly to load. The internal resistance is so low that it is very difficult to detect when it is lower that it should be.

I think what I might do at this stage (assuming a new motor isn't readily available) would be to first try and resolve the grinding noise. If you are happy this is not an issue for using the car, I'd have a look at the solenoid contacts in the pre engaged starter and on the car. I'm not sure if this is possible - is it a sealed unit? If it is you ought to be able to replace with a high current solenoid from more or less any source. Then take the inertia motor for reconstruction. In the UK and in Thailand there are workshops that repair electrical machines just as there are radiator shops. You don't have to go to the original manufacturuer for these things. They will be able to rewind all the coils and armature and fix up the pinion. I'm sure Greece will have places like this.

Hope that helps and good luck.

Chris

 

[Demetris]

Yep, there are different ring gears, but since the starter gears are also bevelled, in practice they will engage fine with any combination. The pre-engaged starter worked for more than a year with the inertia ring gear always engaging cleanly, quietly and instantly, without raising any issue. When the "clicks" appeared for the first time, i also thought first about the contancts in the solenoid, so i removed and cleaned them up, even if they looked almost new (the unit has been rebuilt). The problem persisted, so i replaced the complete solenoid for a new one, but this didn't help either.

Inertia starters are good for little "A" series engines, but on a 2 litre TC engine they don't last. They are just not up to the task.

 

[Demetris]

Hi Chris,

i will try to clarify. The grinding noise has nothing to do with the engine running. It was just on the cranking procedure. In the case of the inertia starter it was because the bendix drive was dismantled.
In the case of the pre-engaged, both the "clicks" and the grinding noise happen during cranking and are interminent. The are times that the starter still engages cleanly.
My last theory is that the starter gear is pushed too far on the ring gear, the trust was marginal and became worse by the time. Hopefully, when i will remove the starter (again) i will find out.
In any case, both solenoids are new.

 

[chrisyork]

Phew! I was worried for you there!

Chris

 

[harveyp6]

I have a vague feeling that the ring gears are different for the different starters, bevelled on opposite sides because the pinion engages from the other direction. .

IIRC it's the same ring gear, it's just put on different ways around for the different types of starter, the lead on the rear for the inertia, and on the front for the pre-engaged. This was in the case of the early cars, but then to avoid problems the ring gears got a lead on both sides, so they could be fitted either way around, and be used with both types of starter.

 

[harveyp6]

That could bend the flywheel? If you were to inspect all the ring gear bolts by winding them past the starter motor aperture you could eliminate this option. (yes, I realise what I just asked - but you don't fancy dropping the box, do you?)

Chris

The ring gears are heat shrunk on to the flywheel on manual cars (this is a TC), it's only the autos that are bolted to the drive plate. I doubt you'll ever bend a flywheel, but what you will do if you rev the nuts off the engine with debris in the bellhousing is smash a hole through where it gets jammed between the ring gear and case. Inertia bendix always did break up regularly, hence the number of gearboxes that had holes drilled into the bottom of the bellhousing to get the bits out.
(Not by me I hasten to add, I always took the box out. A far better solution.)

 

[keanej]

The starter on the P4 fell apart like yours a few months ago, when I compared the bits I had against the parts manual I had some missing.

So I undid the gear box and slid it back inorder to fish out the missing bits, I'm glad I did one thick washer was positioned between the fly wheel and engine block this would have caused no end of damage if it had moved when driving along.

As to the general starting issues, starters should last for years and years so your new ones won't have worn out yet. I would suspect earthing problems or the solenoid, also check the battery terminals are clean.

Is your battery in the boot, if so what is the terminal like on the floor.

New starters can sound noisy until the teeth on the starter dog bed in, with occassional use my P4 took a couple of months or so to quieten down.

 

[Demetris]

Update.
I removed and dismantled the pre-engaged starter. I could not find anything wrong. I put it back together, and refitted it to the car. Still no joy.
When i turn the key i can only hear a click. Yet the starter seems fine out of the car. I have the impression that the starter pinion does not mesh with the ring gear.
However, i cannot explain why this happens. The same assembly worked fine for over a year. I will try one more thing. Connect the starter directly but with using the
separate solenoid. I will still keep the solenoid on the starter wired, in order to pull the pinion, but the high current will only pass through the separate solenoid
in the inner wing. I don't have much hope, but i want to try also this.
In the meantime, i must do something to make the car mobile again. Instread of buying another starter (that would make 4 of them!) :shock: i will try to repair one of the inertia types.
The Bendix assembly was held together by a spring clip or something. I understand that this system for some reason superceded the nut and split pin in older models.
Well, the spring clip has been virtually flatened by the washer in my case, and i think that a nut will be a more successful way of retaining the spring and pinion.
So, i will try to cut a thread and use a castelated nut or something with a split pin. Obviously the thread will have to be left hand, and this makes it a little more
difficult, but i will give it a try.
Or perhaps i could try a more substancial spring clip?
Other ideas to help keep the bendix drive in one piece are welcome. :wink:

 

[keanej]

Just because the starter spins off the car doesn't mean it is OK.

Spinning off the car requires no energy so a weak electrical motor will turn easily.

I would check the Carbon Brushes - are these at or near minimum length, also what is the condition of the armature ? - the contacts that the carbon brushes touch on the inside of the motor ?

 

[rockdemon]

I have seen before that buying starters and alternators that are supposedly reconditioned they pretty much paint the outside and only replace any parts that are completely dead. Anything that is worn or near end of life is often left...

Rich.

 

[Demetris]

On this pre-engaged unit i also replaced everything i could myself. New brushes, bushes, the armature "seems" fine, etc.
I will take it to a proper electrician, perhaps he can see something that i can't.

 

[DaveHerns]

Engine earth lead intact ?

 

[chrisyork]

I suppose it is just possible that you have a battery or battery leads fault? It is known for batteries to be OK at low load but not deliver high load. Is your battery in the engine bay or in the boot? If in the boot there is a famous cable junction under the carpet in the drivers footwell.

Chris

 

[Demetris]

Dave and Chris,

My car is a series 1, the battery is under the bonnet therefore there are no complex connections and miles of heavy cables. Everything is fine on this front. Until it exploded, the inertia unit was cranking the engine as it should.

 

[Demetris]

I think i am getting somewhere.
Today, i connected the pre-engaged starter directly to the separate solenoid, by-passing it's own solenoid. I had the latter connected in parallel to the other solenoid to pull the pinion into mesh with the ring gear.
It worked! The starter engaged first time perfectly and the engine started!
It was just that the starter motor continued running even when i released the switch. :shock:
I switched off the engine and run to disconnect the battery (thank God for the quick release terminal).
So, the "click only" symptoms that i get mean that the solenoid works, the pinion will mesh fine with the ring gear, but for some reason the core of the solenoid cannot go far enough to actually close the contacts.
Out with the starter one more time, and dismantled it again. This is what it looks like. I know that it has been rebuilt before i bought it, the pinion clutch looks new, but now i think that the pivot lever is fitted the wrong way around, and does not allow the solenoid core to pull back as far as it should.
Unfortunately the pictures in the various manuals that i have do not help a lot. Can anyone verify my theory?

 

[j_radcliffe]

I have run both of my Rovers 2000's on a 2M100 Land Rover starter motor for a 6 cylinder LR. This motor is inertia type, 2M100, and is used on some of the 4 cylinder LR's also. This starter was used until 82, so is not too hard to get a hold of. There are some on ebay right now. This starter was also used in some of the Humbers. It is a stronger starter motor.

You may need to change the pinion over. Count the number of teeth on the old starter, and see if it is the same as on the new one. If it is not, then change over the pinions.

To change the pinions, you need 2 metal bar clamps. Use them to compress the spring, and the large round bit at the end that the springs compresses against. You can then get to the split ring, and get it out. Use a sharp pointed object to do this. To put it back together you need to put everything on the pinion, then find a 12 point socket which just fits over the end of the shaft. Put on the split ring, the hit it with a hammer a few times, and the spit ring will end up in the correct place.

When you rebuild a starter motor or generator it is a good idea to replace the brush springs. They do not add too much to the cost of rebuild, and if the generator, or starter motor has got hot a few times, the the springs lose their tension, and the brushes do not contact properly. I had an auto electrician have 2 goes fixing my generator, and I ended up tacking the job myself. I replaced the brush springs, and then it worked. I could get it working before, but I had to hit it with a hammer about every 15 minutes, which is inconvenient.

I would recommend against using a pre-engaged starter motor on a car which was set up of intertia type. I would not take the risk of damaging the ring gear.

James.

 

[Demetris]

At last!
The mystery is solved. Indeed that pivot lever has been fitted the wrong way around by whoever reconditioned the starter. It is my fault also because i failed to spot it until now. I dismantled the pinion drive, and refited it correctly. The starter went back into the car, and now it engages smoothly and quietly and the engine starts immediately. It seems that the way it was before, the movement of the solenoid plunger was marginal. It worked for a while, until it started to fail, probably due to wear, as the plunger could not move far enough to close the contacts properly. Who could imagine. :?
One washer is still left in the bellhousing. I tried in vain to fish it out with various magnets. Probably there is sludge in the bottom of the bellhousing and the washer is firmly planted there. I will try to ignore it at the moment. Soon, i am replacing the propshaft, so i will unbolt and try to slide the gearbox back a little.

James, thanks for the tip with the 2M100 starter. Unfortunately the problem with the inertia starters is the bendix drive that keeps failing. I will try to come up with something different that should be more reliable.

 

[Demetris]

While the pre-engaged starter provides a sterling service and i am not willing at all to venture into another starter swap procedure, i thought about repairing the two inertia starters that i already had. I bought a new bendix assembly to replace the broken gear and i 've come up with a different retaining system. I had a sort of "hat" made in a lathe that fits snuggly over the tip of the starter's shaft. In order to keep the "hat" in place, i threaded the shaft internally in order to bolt a 30mm long, M8 steel LEFT bolt. Hopefully, due to the left thread and some thread locking compound it will stay there for good. I am not exactly itching to try the starters on the car now, i have had enough during the last month, but if i will ever (touch wood) need a replacement starter, i will have not one, but two ready units.