Kenlowe Fan
- Thread starter happy days
- Start date
dmcsweeney
Active Member
Nice setup! Those fans look very similar to the 12" version of my one!
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
Chris S
New Member
I've recently bought a previously restored P6 3500 and the guy who sold it said that if he kept the car he'd fit a Kenlowe fan. Sure enough on a couple of occasions in heavily traffic after the engine is fully hot the temp gauge has headed skywards and the engine stalls easily. (Fuel vapourisation?) Question: Posts here suggest either a 3 core rad or an electric fan. Does anyone have any advice as to what they would do first? Also does a 3 core rad leave enough room for a Kenlowe? Thanks!
What was the ambient temperature like and where was the needle sitting prior to being caught in traffic? High engine can on occasions precipitate stalling due to fuel vapourisation.
Have you flushed the cooling system completely since owning the car? What concentration of anti freeze are you using? Is your engine fan of the fixed steel variety?
A 3 core radiator will fit and still allow installation of an auxilliary fan.
Ron.
clive P62
Active Member
Hi guys
Have fitted 3 core rads with kenlowe on v8 autos but found electric fan not always required.The latest thing in the u/k seems to be uprated 2 core rads.My rad man which used to do my 3 cores said that they have to stretch header tanks to fit these wider cores. I looked at these uprated 2 cores when compared to standard rads and these have much wider cores and more of them as they stagger tubes. More classic owners use them as they look more factory/original and are cheaper now than 3 cores. Just fitted a 2 core rad to my friends auto with good results.Trouble is that unless you know condition of your rad /been replaced recently most old rads are furred up in centre of core, seen them when taked apart.
cheers,
clive.
Have fitted 3 core rads with kenlowe on v8 autos but found electric fan not always required.The latest thing in the u/k seems to be uprated 2 core rads.My rad man which used to do my 3 cores said that they have to stretch header tanks to fit these wider cores. I looked at these uprated 2 cores when compared to standard rads and these have much wider cores and more of them as they stagger tubes. More classic owners use them as they look more factory/original and are cheaper now than 3 cores. Just fitted a 2 core rad to my friends auto with good results.Trouble is that unless you know condition of your rad /been replaced recently most old rads are furred up in centre of core, seen them when taked apart.
cheers,
clive.
mrtask
Well-Known Member
I've just fitted an uprated radiator with a thicker core, from one of the suppliers we all use. It was noticeably heavier than the one I replaced, and the new core is much thicker than before.
I had to replace the previous radiator, because I had fitted a Kenlowe in front, using those crappy little plastic fittings which you have to poke through the radiator matrix. The fan twisted on the rad, opening four holes up where the plastic fittings had been pushed through. Happened on to two succesive radiators too!
I'm hoping the uprated rad will mean I don't have to refit the Kenlowe fan, because I couldn't figure out a tidy way to mount any sort of fabricated bracketry to hold it separate from the rad core. I've reverted to my engine driven fan, with plastic blades, which I had to trim down (reducing cooling efficiency) so as not to foul the crank pulley, because the significantly thicker rad core has filled up most of the space there used to be!
Anyway, a cautionary word to those contemplating the Kenlowe (or whatever brand) electric fan option. Don't use the little flexible plastic attaching thingydingys all the fan suppliers sell! They're crap! They'll kill your radiator, in my experience.
I had to replace the previous radiator, because I had fitted a Kenlowe in front, using those crappy little plastic fittings which you have to poke through the radiator matrix. The fan twisted on the rad, opening four holes up where the plastic fittings had been pushed through. Happened on to two succesive radiators too!
I'm hoping the uprated rad will mean I don't have to refit the Kenlowe fan, because I couldn't figure out a tidy way to mount any sort of fabricated bracketry to hold it separate from the rad core. I've reverted to my engine driven fan, with plastic blades, which I had to trim down (reducing cooling efficiency) so as not to foul the crank pulley, because the significantly thicker rad core has filled up most of the space there used to be!
Anyway, a cautionary word to those contemplating the Kenlowe (or whatever brand) electric fan option. Don't use the little flexible plastic attaching thingydingys all the fan suppliers sell! They're crap! They'll kill your radiator, in my experience.
mrtask wrote,...
Sorry, but I don't like the idea of this at all. How could the fan blades come into contact with the crank pulley? Cutting down their length to me could lead to vibrations that will damage the water pump bearing, resulting in premature failure.
If the core of the radiator is so thick as to see such a problem arise, then in my mind it is not fit for purpose.
Ron.
Sorry, but I don't like the idea of this at all. How could the fan blades come into contact with the crank pulley? Cutting down their length to me could lead to vibrations that will damage the water pump bearing, resulting in premature failure.
If the core of the radiator is so thick as to see such a problem arise, then in my mind it is not fit for purpose.
Ron.
mrtask
Well-Known Member
Hi Ron
No worries, mate! The plastic fan blades had an approx. 3cm wide curved edge, the part of each blade that actually moves the air. Previously the fan had been mounted on an alloy spacer, 2cm thick, to set it forward of the crank pulley. Now the rad core is closer to the engine, hence not enough space for the spacer, so I've stuck the plastic fan straight onto the water pump nose. I had to make a little hole in it for the locating pin on the pump nose. I've used shorter bolts, with washers. The plastic fan now sits above the crank pulley, not in front of it. So the bottom edge of the fan blades needded trimming back. The blade length remains the same, but now the 'shovel' part of the six blades, where they curve, are 25mm smaller and don't foul the crank pulley anymore. The plastic fan already weighed much less than a standard Rover metal one, now it's shed a few more grammes, but doesn't whirl as much air around. That is hopefully made up for by the increased cooling capability of the chunky rad. A before and after pic didn't happen 'cos I wasn't expecting that little problem to crop up.
No worries, mate! The plastic fan blades had an approx. 3cm wide curved edge, the part of each blade that actually moves the air. Previously the fan had been mounted on an alloy spacer, 2cm thick, to set it forward of the crank pulley. Now the rad core is closer to the engine, hence not enough space for the spacer, so I've stuck the plastic fan straight onto the water pump nose. I had to make a little hole in it for the locating pin on the pump nose. I've used shorter bolts, with washers. The plastic fan now sits above the crank pulley, not in front of it. So the bottom edge of the fan blades needded trimming back. The blade length remains the same, but now the 'shovel' part of the six blades, where they curve, are 25mm smaller and don't foul the crank pulley anymore. The plastic fan already weighed much less than a standard Rover metal one, now it's shed a few more grammes, but doesn't whirl as much air around. That is hopefully made up for by the increased cooling capability of the chunky rad. A before and after pic didn't happen 'cos I wasn't expecting that little problem to crop up.
I can't comment about the merits of a thicker rad vs an electric fan but what I will suggest as an absolute must if you go the electric route is as follows. There is a thread covering this but the search doesn't work currently.
a. Fit the largest diameter fan that will physically fit. This improves efficiency by sweeping the maximum surface area of the radiator and hence can spin slower (and quieter - this is important as you will find out). A single large fan covers a greater area and has a smaller void where the second motor would be. The model I got to fit was a http://www.buhr-gmbh.de/en/products/engine-cooling-systems/spal/va18-ap51c-41s. and it was bloody tight ahead of the rad. Techinically, a "sucker" solution behind the rad is more efficient than the blower, but space is limited.
b. You need a quality brand with sealed bearings if you don't want to redo the job in 12 months time - the front of the car is exposed to dirty. often gritty water. Try an air-conditioner/refrigeration specialist if motor factors can't help you out.
c. Have the radiator modified to take a standard thermoswitch boss under the intake hose. Put this a little lower than ideal because the rad has no expansion tank as standard and the top inch or two is usually empty. This gives you the choice of loads of different switches. Avoid hacking hoses and sticking probes in the fins of the rad. It is cheaper (£20 in my case) and less likely to leak this way as well as being neat and unobtrusive. The thread is M22x1.5.
d. Whatever you do use a TWO speed solution. Any fan that blows with enough power to cover the extremes (i.e. towing a caravan uphill in traffic at 40 degrees) will be bloody noisy. You need a lower speed (simple resistor pack) to find a quieter level which covers 95% of the time. I used a 100W 0.45ohm resistor from ebay - about £3. Mine didn't need the high speed last summer even in 36 degree heat - but I'm glad it is there - this year I might try a higher resistor and lower the standard speed/power to reduce the load on the electrical system and make it quieter. Mine is a Peugeot thermoswitch 97-92 (high) and 93-88 (low) degrees. The temperature gauge doesn't go above 2/3rds up into the center "white" zone, 85-90 degrees I reckon. The high pressure cooling system won't boil until 122 degrees (higher depending on glycol concentration) but you really want to keep it under 100 degrees at most and stay around 90ish in regular use. Certainly I'm comfortable with fan fan kicking in at 93 being the normal operational "high".
I can't verify the claims of increased engine efficiency or warm up time using an electric only solution and there is one disadvantage - there is no flow at all in the engine bay when stopped. What would be ideal is if the fan always ran at a very low speed just to just move a little air around to avoid hot spots and build ups of hot air. This is essentially the P6s problem. The standard rad is fundamentally good in terms of capacity, the problem is the tightly packed engine bay. This is borne-out through experience with fuel vapourization and perhaps why they fitted the bonnet scoops on the NADA.
a. Fit the largest diameter fan that will physically fit. This improves efficiency by sweeping the maximum surface area of the radiator and hence can spin slower (and quieter - this is important as you will find out). A single large fan covers a greater area and has a smaller void where the second motor would be. The model I got to fit was a http://www.buhr-gmbh.de/en/products/engine-cooling-systems/spal/va18-ap51c-41s. and it was bloody tight ahead of the rad. Techinically, a "sucker" solution behind the rad is more efficient than the blower, but space is limited.
b. You need a quality brand with sealed bearings if you don't want to redo the job in 12 months time - the front of the car is exposed to dirty. often gritty water. Try an air-conditioner/refrigeration specialist if motor factors can't help you out.
c. Have the radiator modified to take a standard thermoswitch boss under the intake hose. Put this a little lower than ideal because the rad has no expansion tank as standard and the top inch or two is usually empty. This gives you the choice of loads of different switches. Avoid hacking hoses and sticking probes in the fins of the rad. It is cheaper (£20 in my case) and less likely to leak this way as well as being neat and unobtrusive. The thread is M22x1.5.
d. Whatever you do use a TWO speed solution. Any fan that blows with enough power to cover the extremes (i.e. towing a caravan uphill in traffic at 40 degrees) will be bloody noisy. You need a lower speed (simple resistor pack) to find a quieter level which covers 95% of the time. I used a 100W 0.45ohm resistor from ebay - about £3. Mine didn't need the high speed last summer even in 36 degree heat - but I'm glad it is there - this year I might try a higher resistor and lower the standard speed/power to reduce the load on the electrical system and make it quieter. Mine is a Peugeot thermoswitch 97-92 (high) and 93-88 (low) degrees. The temperature gauge doesn't go above 2/3rds up into the center "white" zone, 85-90 degrees I reckon. The high pressure cooling system won't boil until 122 degrees (higher depending on glycol concentration) but you really want to keep it under 100 degrees at most and stay around 90ish in regular use. Certainly I'm comfortable with fan fan kicking in at 93 being the normal operational "high".
I can't verify the claims of increased engine efficiency or warm up time using an electric only solution and there is one disadvantage - there is no flow at all in the engine bay when stopped. What would be ideal is if the fan always ran at a very low speed just to just move a little air around to avoid hot spots and build ups of hot air. This is essentially the P6s problem. The standard rad is fundamentally good in terms of capacity, the problem is the tightly packed engine bay. This is borne-out through experience with fuel vapourization and perhaps why they fitted the bonnet scoops on the NADA.
clive P62
Active Member
Hi guys
The peugeot/citroen dealership i work at our cars have a post cooling function after hot engines are turned off, fans run for approx 3/5 mins to cool down engine compartment/pre cat converters.
Also cooling fans run at slow speed all the time A/C is used.
Iwonder if some type of timer could be used as well for your electric set up on p6s.
clive.
The peugeot/citroen dealership i work at our cars have a post cooling function after hot engines are turned off, fans run for approx 3/5 mins to cool down engine compartment/pre cat converters.
Also cooling fans run at slow speed all the time A/C is used.
Iwonder if some type of timer could be used as well for your electric set up on p6s.
clive.
suffolkpete
Member
Using a resistor is a very wasteful means of controlling the fan speed. The Peugeots I've owned use two fans and are connected in series with the supply for low speed and parallel for high speed.
unstable load
Well-Known Member
An essential in fitting electric fans, or indeed for that matter, the current fans is for the fan housing to completely shroud the radiator to allow ALL the air passing through the fan to go through the core. Gaps where there is no shroud will become hot spots due to reduced air flow.
Different schools of thought on that. A shroud increases efficiency of the fan but of course lowers the passive cooling when the vehicle is moving. So all you will achieve in this case as the thermostat opens before the fan kicks in and you are blocking the radiator is ensure the fan operates more frequently. This is desirable in modern cars as the fan speed is variable on a feedbackloop and it ensures the car runs as near to an exact temperature as possible, this improves emissions. There just isn't the thermal cycling you get get old cars.
Whether you want the electric fan to kick in all the time on your P6 operating with a fan running at a fixed speed (or speeds), I'm not so sure. If you could engineer a feedback system which could do the same as a modern car then this is ideal because even in an old car reducing the temperature variation and the cycles of expansion and contraction is good from a wear point of view.
Personally on a simple system I think a shroud is a negative. A big fan (16" in my case) will give you easily "enough" cooling.
Whether you want the electric fan to kick in all the time on your P6 operating with a fan running at a fixed speed (or speeds), I'm not so sure. If you could engineer a feedback system which could do the same as a modern car then this is ideal because even in an old car reducing the temperature variation and the cycles of expansion and contraction is good from a wear point of view.
Personally on a simple system I think a shroud is a negative. A big fan (16" in my case) will give you easily "enough" cooling.
0.45ohm in parallel with the fan will pass about 8 amps. 1^2R means you "waste" 28watts or about half a headlamp bulb. As opposed to the 5kW or so a fixed engine driven fan "wastes". You can used a more sophisticated PWM controller but there isn't much point, robustness being more the issue.