webmaster
New Member
According to this datasheet http://datasheets.bp.com/bpglis/lub...EFD6B16DB69FA76380256EE8003D5704?OpenDocument The Castrol Classic XL 20W50 has 0.08% (800ppm) zinc, so it looks like that table isn't entirely accurate 
15/40 castrol edge
- Thread starter bri p6b v8
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testrider
Active Member
Thanks for clearing that up Richard, I hadn't equated ppm and % to be the same thing, but it's obvious when you think about it.
I had brief heart failure when I looked at the P5 forum table earlier as I've been using Castol XL since I rebuilt my engine early last year, but it seems that all is well after all.
I had brief heart failure when I looked at the P5 forum table earlier as I've been using Castol XL since I rebuilt my engine early last year, but it seems that all is well after all.
testrider wrote,...
Hello testrider,
The table that Grim V8 posted is no longer current, the specifications for some of the oils has since changed, so best to look at the info on the websites at present.
Regarding the zinc levels,...as an example 0.08% is 800 PPM,..that is 800 parts per million. So 800 divided by one million is 0.0008. If you express 0.08% as a decimal by dividing by 100 you obtain the same answer...0.0008. So whether expressed in PPM or as a percentage, both are equivilent.
The zinc and phosphorus levels in engine oils also vary widely depending upon the country in which you live. This I expect is due to the differing regulations that apply within each country.
On the oil viscosities, in the official Rover British Leyland workshop manuals of 1972, there are a range of engine oil specs given. The ubiquitous 20W-50 but also BP Super Visco-Static 10W-40 and Esso Extra Motor Oil 20W-30... :shock: In all later publications to my knowledge the specs all reflected 20W-50. I expect this was due to owners less than happy with the noises their engines may have been making from running 10 weight oil or an equivilent 30 or 40 weight when hot,...ouch..what happened to my oil pressure?
Ron.
Hello testrider,
The table that Grim V8 posted is no longer current, the specifications for some of the oils has since changed, so best to look at the info on the websites at present.
Regarding the zinc levels,...as an example 0.08% is 800 PPM,..that is 800 parts per million. So 800 divided by one million is 0.0008. If you express 0.08% as a decimal by dividing by 100 you obtain the same answer...0.0008. So whether expressed in PPM or as a percentage, both are equivilent.
The zinc and phosphorus levels in engine oils also vary widely depending upon the country in which you live. This I expect is due to the differing regulations that apply within each country.
On the oil viscosities, in the official Rover British Leyland workshop manuals of 1972, there are a range of engine oil specs given. The ubiquitous 20W-50 but also BP Super Visco-Static 10W-40 and Esso Extra Motor Oil 20W-30... :shock: In all later publications to my knowledge the specs all reflected 20W-50. I expect this was due to owners less than happy with the noises their engines may have been making from running 10 weight oil or an equivilent 30 or 40 weight when hot,...ouch..what happened to my oil pressure?
Ron.
darth sidious
New Member
webmaster said:
OK guys, call me a cynic if you want.
Has another expert body or person stated/claimed, (and/or have tangible evidence which corroborates) these 'must be minimum of 0.07% Phos and 0.077% Zinc' figures apart from Penrite? It would be to Penrite's advantage to push this idea that their oils have sufficient amounts whereas others fall short...
I'm starting to wonder if we're swallowing some marketing propaganda without realising it! :shock:
darth sidious wrote,...
Hello Darth,
Here is an article which corroborates the minimums advised by Penrite.
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief8%20-%2 ... 20ZDDP.pdf
And another from Valvoline.
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/
I think it would be a courageous decision indeed to specifically choose an engine oil with less rather than more zinc and phosphorus.
Ron.
Hello Darth,
Here is an article which corroborates the minimums advised by Penrite.
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief8%20-%2 ... 20ZDDP.pdf
And another from Valvoline.
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/
I think it would be a courageous decision indeed to specifically choose an engine oil with less rather than more zinc and phosphorus.
Ron.
Dave3066
Well-Known Member
Ron
Thanks for posting those links. That first one makes very interesting reading. Particulary the depletion vs engine mileage graph. Explains perfectly why the highest level of ZDDP is required and why regular oil changes at 3000 miles are needed.
Darth
You're a cynic
..............but so am I so well done for asking the difficult questions.
Dave
Thanks for posting those links. That first one makes very interesting reading. Particulary the depletion vs engine mileage graph. Explains perfectly why the highest level of ZDDP is required and why regular oil changes at 3000 miles are needed.
darth sidious said:
Darth
You're a cynic
..............but so am I so well done for asking the difficult questions.
Dave
darth sidious
New Member
SydneyRoverP6B said:
Thank you for that, Ron! *Hat's off to you* I think Valvoline, Penrite, or Millers for my (hopefully soon to be acquired) P6 3500S!
Well Dave, I do try to ask the questions others dare not ask! :wink:
Dave3066
Well-Known Member
My local vintage car club is offering a discount on lubricants from the Morris Lubricants http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/default.asp so I thought I'd check them out. Their website has a classic 20W50 oil rated API SF/CC MIL-L-2104B and the data sheet quotes <1% ZDDP content. I contacted them to ask exactly what the level was and got this reply:
Hello David
The issue of ZDDP or Zinc is far more complicated than is commonly thought and manufacturers do not recommend oils by the amount of zinc in them, instead they look at the overall performance required and then quote an overall specification such as API, ACEA etc. With ZDDP (zinc) everyone's preconception is that the more there is the better. Nothing could be further from the truth and too much or too little can cause problems. Too little and you can get accelerated wear, too much and you get cam pitting, ash formation, bore polishing, upper cylinder wear, pinking etc. So just using an oil with high levels of ZDDP could cause more problems than it solved. It should also be noted that back in the mid 60's and earlier there was no such thing as ZDDP, engines were "splash and cling" oil lubricated not additive lubricated. Now whilst this wasn't always ideal it worked pretty well overall. The secret then is to use an oil with the right amount of ZDDP for any given engine.
Typically Golden Film SAE 20W/50 will have a zinc content of 650ppm (0.065%).
If you would like to let us know the make, model and age of your engine we will be happy to advise the correct grade from our range.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Andy Brown
Technical Advisor
Morris Lubricants
01743 237504
What do people make of this response?
Dave
Hello David
The issue of ZDDP or Zinc is far more complicated than is commonly thought and manufacturers do not recommend oils by the amount of zinc in them, instead they look at the overall performance required and then quote an overall specification such as API, ACEA etc. With ZDDP (zinc) everyone's preconception is that the more there is the better. Nothing could be further from the truth and too much or too little can cause problems. Too little and you can get accelerated wear, too much and you get cam pitting, ash formation, bore polishing, upper cylinder wear, pinking etc. So just using an oil with high levels of ZDDP could cause more problems than it solved. It should also be noted that back in the mid 60's and earlier there was no such thing as ZDDP, engines were "splash and cling" oil lubricated not additive lubricated. Now whilst this wasn't always ideal it worked pretty well overall. The secret then is to use an oil with the right amount of ZDDP for any given engine.
Typically Golden Film SAE 20W/50 will have a zinc content of 650ppm (0.065%).
If you would like to let us know the make, model and age of your engine we will be happy to advise the correct grade from our range.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Andy Brown
Technical Advisor
Morris Lubricants
01743 237504
What do people make of this response?
Dave
I think I might be inclined to write back and play the innocent Rover enthusiast and ask for their recommendations for a Rover 110 (1963), Rover 3500 (yours), and Rover 200TC (1966). See what comes back - there ought to be at least two different recommendations from that list!
We also need a response from Tofufi on this one as he's a trainee super expert on oils!
Chris
We also need a response from Tofufi on this one as he's a trainee super expert on oils!
Chris
Hello Dave,
That is an intersting reply from Morris Lubricants. I have heard the argument before of too much zinc being just as bad if not worse than too little. There is obviously a minimum and maximum safe level of such, and seeing that their oil sits at the minimum end it is in their interests to push that perspective. That brand of lubricant is not available in Australia, so it is not a viable proposition for me.
As an example at the other end of the zinc spectrum, the Penrite oil that I use has 0.158% zinc, which is 2.43 times as much zinc as the figures quoted by Morris Lubricants for their product. Penrite is the official supplier of lubricants for Land Rover in Australia, with all of the engine oils recommended for the Rover V8 powered vehicles possessing higher levels of zinc ranging from 1.7 to 2.7 times as much as the zinc content of the Morris Lubricant.
Maybe problems occur when owners start adding zinc additives to their engine oil. :? I'll do some more digging.
Ron.
That is an intersting reply from Morris Lubricants. I have heard the argument before of too much zinc being just as bad if not worse than too little. There is obviously a minimum and maximum safe level of such, and seeing that their oil sits at the minimum end it is in their interests to push that perspective. That brand of lubricant is not available in Australia, so it is not a viable proposition for me.
As an example at the other end of the zinc spectrum, the Penrite oil that I use has 0.158% zinc, which is 2.43 times as much zinc as the figures quoted by Morris Lubricants for their product. Penrite is the official supplier of lubricants for Land Rover in Australia, with all of the engine oils recommended for the Rover V8 powered vehicles possessing higher levels of zinc ranging from 1.7 to 2.7 times as much as the zinc content of the Morris Lubricant.
Maybe problems occur when owners start adding zinc additives to their engine oil. :? I'll do some more digging.
Ron.
I have just read an interesting article that may be of interest to all Rover owners . Go to the website www. economist.com and find the article under Science and Technology dated 5 November 2010 by Babbage. It relates to the damage caused to the engines in older cars caused by modern oils. It refers in particular to ZDDP and phosphorus being present. This is a subject dear to the heart of contributors to this forum, particularly Ron from NSW. Good luck!
Hello Classicus,
That is exactly right and why with modern oils appropriate levels of zinc and phosphorus are essential in ensuring longevity with our Rover engines.
Ron.
That is exactly right and why with modern oils appropriate levels of zinc and phosphorus are essential in ensuring longevity with our Rover engines.
Ron.
keynsham1
Active Member
I have always been led to believe that no engine is actually designed to run using 20W/50. I have always used a good quality 10W/40 and never had any problems. 20W/50 always used to be the oil you would revert to if your engine was starting to show signs of wear and smoke!. That being said, the Rover workshop manual for the 3500 quotes anything from 20W , 10W-40, Castrol GTX, Duckhams Q20-50 Esso 20W-30 Havoline 20W-20 Shell super 100W etc, etc. My advice would be to use a good brand and just change it regularly!
keynsham1 wrote,...
Hello keynsham1,
Everything that I have read or heard mentioned is that for the Rover V8 engine running with a camshaft driven oil pump, a 20 weight oil,..ie 20W-50 should be used. Could I ask please,..when you start your engine from cold, what oil pressure does it register at idle and again when coolant temperature reaches 80 degrees C or so, what oil pressure does your engine show then?
Thanks in advance,
Ron.
Hello keynsham1,
Everything that I have read or heard mentioned is that for the Rover V8 engine running with a camshaft driven oil pump, a 20 weight oil,..ie 20W-50 should be used. Could I ask please,..when you start your engine from cold, what oil pressure does it register at idle and again when coolant temperature reaches 80 degrees C or so, what oil pressure does your engine show then?
Thanks in advance,
Ron.
rockdemon wrote,...
Hello Rich,
In Australia, Land Rover recommended a 10W-60 for the 4.6 litre HSE Range Rover and a 15W-60 for the 4.0 litre SE Range Rover and Land Rover Discovery. Both engines were fitted with the more efficient crankshaft driven oil pumps so lighter oils could be used without problems.
Ron.
Hello Rich,
In Australia, Land Rover recommended a 10W-60 for the 4.6 litre HSE Range Rover and a 15W-60 for the 4.0 litre SE Range Rover and Land Rover Discovery. Both engines were fitted with the more efficient crankshaft driven oil pumps so lighter oils could be used without problems.
Ron.
I will add that the 4.0 and 4.6 litre engines ran with 96 degree C thermostats meaning that during normal running the coolant temperature would often be or exceed 100 degrees C. Engine oil in the base of the sump at its coolest would typically be 110 degrees C as a result rising to over 130 degrees during most occasions. For this reason the engine oils recommended were not straight mineral oils, but rather semi synthetics as they possess a wider safe operating temperature range.
Ron.
Ron.
I'm certainly going to stick with the 20/50 - I've used halfords classic this far but next time will be looking for something with the correctly defined levels of ZDDP in... I just think for the difference in cost it's not worth any risk. In these days of ebay etc you can get most things if you try even if they are niche market....
Rich.
Rich.