A question about bodies... car bodyshells, of course!

[darth sidious]

After watching "Wheeler Dealers" on one of the Discovery channels recently, Pinky & Perky... sorry, I mean Mike Brewer and Edd China ... were renovating a classic Volkswagen Beetle (at least i think it was a Beetle!)

During the show, they showed the bodyshell being separated from it's chassis because it was rotten; they found another bodyshell and fitted that to the chassis. I think they kept the original number plate and don't recall any mention of informing either the DVLA and/or the insurance company. (If I'm wrong here, please feel free to correct)

Seeing the debacle regarding the MGB on Channel 5's Classic Car Rescue, how do the law/DVLA/authorities view the replacing of a bodyshell with regards the registration number? My question with Brewer & China was/is, seeing they changed the body shell, doesn't that therefore make the Beetle (with regards to registration) another car? In essence, aren't they effectively making it a "ringer"?

I realise the fact it's a body-on-a-chassis and designed to be relatively-easily replaced, whereas the MGB is a monocoque. Does the fact it's a body-on-a-chassis make any difference with regards registration?

 

[TokyoP6B]

Beetles are monocoque; they don't have a separate frame. The frame tag is riveted at the top of what would be the firewall ( if the engine was under the hood! )
Not familiar with the Wheeler Dealers episode but it's quite common to weld in a new floor to a rusty Beetle

There must be a process to re-Vin re-shelled vehicles as Heritage have sold/sell MG-B bodies...

There was a major upset in the car hobby in the States a couple years back where a vendor was offering NOS threaded pegs used for staking in the frame tags on GM vehicles; the vendor was arrested at a swap meet by the FBI...

Best to consult MOT/DMV if in doubt

GW

 

[So Cal V8]

The classic VW Beetle is a semi-monocoque in that it does have a separate chassis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va6A68yiimE

The chassis number on the Beetle is under the rear seat stamped onto the transmission tunnel. Removing the body would still leave the chassis with its number. I don't know how the UK authorities would view this kind of work/modification, but it's not unusual here in the US to have an older chassis coupled with a later body, or vice versa. Obviously, the debate among the purists then becomes how to classify the car... is it a 50s split window oval or a later model because of the chassis.

I know that DMV in California will not use the ID plate on the body for verification purposes, they specifically check the number stamped on the transmission tunnel.
My wife's '62

 

[Willy Eckerslyke]

In the UK there's a points system for deciding whether a vehicle retains its identity. It needs to score at least 8 (I think).

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

I don't see why the original Beetle chassis would not score 5.

 

[OrganDoctor]

Now if get a heart transplant........................

 

[darth sidious]

Thanks for that!

In the UK there's a points system for deciding whether a vehicle retains its identity. It needs to score at least 8 (I think).

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

I don't see why the original Beetle chassis would not score 5.

Ah, interesting!

Therefore in theory, If I were to write-off or have a P6 base-unit that's totally gone/rotted etc, somehow acquire another usable base-unit to the same spec, fit the original suspension, axles, gearbox, steering box and perhaps engine (yes, very expensive and totally impractical and uneconomic - I'd need far more money than sense!!), then I could keep the same identity/Reg Number?

 

[Ethelred]

Ah, interesting!

Therefore in theory, If I were to write-off or have a P6 base-unit that's totally gone/rotted etc, somehow acquire another usable base-unit to the same spec, fit the original suspension, axles, gearbox, steering box and perhaps engine (yes, very expensive and totally impractical and uneconomic - I'd need far more money than sense!!), then I could keep the same identity/Reg Number?

I do have more money than sense and I always will because I know there's an old 50p in ETR's glovebox and that I have no sense at all - QED. :|

I'm not wealthy either but it is possible to contemplate what you describe. I was fortunate to step uninjured from a P6 that had been involved in a head on collision. The car was an insurance write off so I have opted to have the bits put onto a very solid base unit. There will be no attempt to transfer the identity of the vehicle however - I am content to transfer the registration of the wrecked car onto the 'new' car and it is currently on retention pending completion of the project.


Golden Jubilee P6 by EthelRedThePetrolHead, on Flickr

 

[darth sidious]

I do have more money than sense and I always will because I know there's an old 50p in ETR's glovebox and that I have no sense at all - QED. :|

I'm not wealthy either but it is possible to contemplate what you describe. I was fortunate to step uninjured from a P6 that had been involved in a head on collision. The car was an insurance write off so I have opted to have the bits put onto a very solid base unit. There will be no attempt to transfer the identity of the vehicle however - I am content to transfer the registration of the wrecked car onto the 'new' car and it is currently on retention pending completion of the project.


Golden Jubilee P6 by EthelRedThePetrolHead, on Flickr

Ah, so not so "out there" as I thought! When I said "identity", I was really meaning the Reg Number; I recognise Reg Numbers far easier than long-ish VIN/Chassis numbers!

So when that project is finished, you'll have to inform DVLA that it's got a "new" VIN/Chassis Number and have to get an updated Reg Document, correct?

 

[Ethelred]

I do have more money than sense and I always will because I know there's an old 50p in ETR's glovebox and that I have no sense at all - QED. :|

I'm not wealthy either but it is possible to contemplate what you describe. I was fortunate to step uninjured from a P6 that had been involved in a head on collision. The car was an insurance write off so I have opted to have the bits put onto a very solid base unit. There will be no attempt to transfer the identity of the vehicle however - I am content to transfer the registration of the wrecked car onto the 'new' car and it is currently on retention pending completion of the project.


Golden Jubilee P6 by EthelRedThePetrolHead, on Flickr

Ah, so not so "out there" as I thought! When I said "identity", I was really meaning the Reg Number; I recognise Reg Numbers far easier than long-ish VIN/Chassis numbers!

So when that project is finished, you'll have to inform DVLA that it's got a "new" VIN/Chassis Number and have to get an updated Reg Document, correct?

The "new" car will have to pass a normal MOT with its original plates on, then I send off the forms to the DVLA to transfer the retained plate onto the car.

 

[sowen]

Thanks for that!

In the UK there's a points system for deciding whether a vehicle retains its identity. It needs to score at least 8 (I think).

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

I don't see why the original Beetle chassis would not score 5.

Ah, interesting!

Therefore in theory, If I were to write-off or have a P6 base-unit that's totally gone/rotted etc, somehow acquire another usable base-unit to the same spec, fit the original suspension, axles, gearbox, steering box and perhaps engine (yes, very expensive and totally impractical and uneconomic - I'd need far more money than sense!!), then I could keep the same identity/Reg Number?

No, because you have built a vehicle out of two, so it becomes of undetermined age and should have an identity inspection. Whether it recieves an age related plate or goes on a Q plate I am unsure of at the moment. Simple answer is use the registration/ID of the bodyshell being used and keep evidence.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

What Ethelred is doing is legal as the plate is held on retention, and the VIN/ID of the donor bodyshell is being retained.

In the case of re-bodying a Beetle, I believe the DVLA/VOSA consider the bodyshell AND chassis to be one unit, as the chassis is not a full structural member.

In the case of most other seperate chassis vehicles you are allowed to rebody them with whatever you want within reason, but again you must have an identity check and I believe you can issue a new non trade-mark make/model name, so that it is clear it is a legit rebody and not another illegal "just mot it m8" scenario.

 

[Willy Eckerslyke]

Therefore in theory, If I were to write-off or have a P6 base-unit that's totally gone/rotted etc, somehow acquire another usable base-unit to the same spec, fit the original suspension, axles, gearbox, steering box and perhaps engine (yes, very expensive and totally impractical and uneconomic - I'd need far more money than sense!!), then I could keep the same identity/Reg Number?

No. What I should have added, is that the 8 points has to include the chassis/bodyshell.
You could do it if you found a new/unused base unit or bought a Heritage shell (for example). It's only used parts that don't score any points.

 

[Willy Eckerslyke]

In the case of re-bodying a Beetle, I believe the DVLA/VOSA consider the bodyshell AND chassis to be one unit, as the chassis is not a full structural member.

In the case of most other seperate chassis vehicles you are allowed to rebody them with whatever you want within reason, but again you must have an identity check and I believe you can issue a new non trade-mark make/model name, so that it is clear it is a legit rebody and not another illegal "just mot it m8" scenario.

I thought that's what happened with Beetle based specials like Beach Buggies, hence my thought that their chassis counted. Or do they retain some of the bodyshell?

 

[darth sidious]

Clearly more involved than I thought. Thanks!

So, how did Channel 5's "Classic Car Rescue" get round the problem with regards the Reg No. on the MGB? Or did they use the Reg No. of the shell they used as opposed the Reg No. of the car they bought? Or did they just stick their heads in the sand and try to fob it off?

 

[chrisyork]

Ah, well, there's a question!

Chris

 

[Junkman]

Swapping beetle bodies is common practice in Germany and Austria and has absolutely no effect on the registration there, since the beetle is classed as a body-on-frame car and the body is essentially a replaceable spare part.
I would think the same applies throughout the EU member countries, although car registrations are still national law and the EU issues merely 'guidelines'.
However, swapping bodies is a common practice also in the UK, where many old cars with a separate chassis received and still receive a multitude of bodies throughout their lifetime, usually depending on what is scoring highest on the auction block at any given time. For example, there are more open-body pre-war Rolls-Royces in existence today than ever before.

Besides, the beetle chassis is well self supporting and actually supports the body. I have driven several beetle chassis with the body removed and it's great fun.