Bent Frame

So Cal V8

So Cal V8

Active Member
They say there is no such thing as a stupid question; well I am going to prove that wrong by asking one...

In my hunt for a P6 here on the left coast I have come across a car that intrigues me, but... it has some issues, and I am wondering if I should leave it and continue the search.

It is a relatively low mileage NADA 3500S and has been owned by the same guy since the mid-nineties. I've not seen it in person, but the photos show it to be in quite good condition and the interior looks well.

The problem is that it might have a "slightly" bent frame.

From what I know, the car hit a major pothole (probably at speed); the left suspension arm punched a hole in the inner wing. The car is said to look and drive well, but the left door binds when opening.

I have basic mechanical knowledge, and I planned to refine these skills and teach myself new ones during a restoration. Some projects, like paint, would be farmed out as there is no way I could teach myself properly within the scope of my project. A bent frame would come into that classification.

Conceptually I understand what is needed to straighten the frame, but realistically I have no idea - I assume, but don't know for sure, that I could find someone locally to do the work.

What are your thoughts? Is it just too much? Do you think in would be cost prohibitive? I know it would be nice to have more information or even the vehicle to examine, but given the facts I have your opinions are welcome.

I would really like to get some feedback from you guys out there.

Thanks in advance.

Alan
 
Hi, I think you need to view this in person and preferably with some one
with knowledge of P6s I realise that is easier said than done in America.
It can take a lot to bend a P6 and even more to straighten them. I am not
sure how it can punch a hole in the inner wing, maybe it has torn the arm
from the bulkhead.

"slightly bent frame" "looks and drives well" in the words of Mandy Rice Davis
"well he would say that wouldn't he".

Good luck!!

Colin
 
Hello Alan,

I have seen what you describe re the top ball joint nut punching a hole through the inner guard on quite a number of occasions. This alone will not "bend the frame" as you put it. If the car has had a major impact on either front or rear corner, compressing the structure inwards, then the possibility for distortion of the base unit is there.

The issue with the doors could be down to nothing more than hinges and striker plates which require adjustment, all of which are adjustable. The stainless steel window frames are also adjustable, so again issues can be corrected up to a point.

Do you have a motoring organisation there that carry out pre purchase checks on cars and provide a detailed report to the potential buyer?

Ron.
 
Colin and Ron,

Thanks for the input guys.

It's a tough one without more detailed information - I realize that to some extent I am hoping that one of you out there has a crystal ball.

I did have a P6 in the UK, but I wouldn't describe myself as an expert on them. Probably I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous to myself - however, having a basic understanding of old motors and using this forum as a resource I can probably get by - I am just a little stumped by this issue of a "slightly bent" frame - is it bent? Isn't it bent? Could the symptoms be just the door out of whack? And so on...

The descriptions of the damage, how it happened and the results are from the seller - so without more I have to take them as a given. The car was apparently driven for about ten or so years after the pothole incident.

Presumably I could have the car inspected by AAA, the pitfalls there (without throwing up walls) would be the fact that it's a 1970 "foreign" car - I am sure a professional could overlook that, but I have found that sometimes locals can't get beyond that. Then there is the distance; it's located about 360 miles from me, so any tyre kicking trip is an investment of time, gas, etc.

I am torn - the price is quite reasonable, the overall condition is pretty good, especially the interior, and NADAs are getting as rare as hen's teeth - but, assuming the worst, am I buying trouble? I have no desire to try to resell an unfinished project, and I don't want to go into the parts business either - couple this with the fact that the other half may (read will) take a very dim view if it all goes south.

Is correcting a "slightly bent" frame too far beyond the pale?

Ron - given your experience, would hitting a pothole at speed be enough to jar the door etc., to the point where it could knock it out of adjustment? Without knowing more, would you say that a pothole could bend the frame? I feel that it would have to be a monster pothole hit at really high speed, but your experience would trump my guess work.

Thanks again.

Alan
 
I know that it is not close, but IMHO you should not attempt anything before viewing it yourself.
A seller's description can be accurate, but can also be way off truth, simply due to his ignorance and not neccesarily from intention.
I know that it can be a wasted trip, but this is the issue with buying old cars and in your case you don't have much chance to find something suitable around the next corner.

My TC probably had a similar incidence in its previous life, something that pushed the right front wheel backwards a little and messed the alignment. Thanks to a very capable mechanic that knew his way around suspension setups, we managed to restore everything to normal without too much effort. But mind you, in my case, the only visible clue was the wrong camber of the right front wheel. An incidence that resulted in a damage that you describe could well have affected the front suspension pick up points in the bulkhead. If it's something minor that could rectified with slight shimming, fine. But if the bulkhead is bent for good, i am afraid that there's no return.
 
Hello Alan,

Without seeing the car, I would be inclined to say that the two issues, the binding of the left hand doors and the hole punched in the inner guard are unrelated. The latter can occur when a large pot hole is encountered combined with tired soft shock absorbers that require replacement all running with soft front springs. I have seen it a number of times before on local cars, but can recall no problems with their doors.

On a structually sound base unit, such an impact with a pot hole would not bend the front section of the base unit at the point where the top links are attached. If there was substantial corrosion, then the outcome may well be quite different.

As Demetris rightly pointed out, you need to make the trip and have a good look yourself. Photos don't always show the full story, and the impressions that you make upon inspection will be the telling story.

Ron.
 
having bought vehicles sight unseen over the internet (ie ebay), I cannot stress how important it is to actually go and see something like this in person!
 
Ron, Demetris and Ewok,

All points well taken - still looking for that magic bullet that will assure that I have lucked out and it's the perfect find at the perfect price.

I too have bought cars online - "nah mate, she's as saund as a paund - strong runner..." several weeks and 6,000 miles later it turns out it's a pile of pooh with no first gear and the clutch (among other things) is shagged.

So, just to summarize - a good solid base unit is unlikely to be bent from an encounter with a pothole. I say unlikely, but I suppose there are a million other factors that could come in to play.

If the base unit has suffered from the usual tin worm and it has been affected in the right (wrong?) place it could have an affect on the bulkhead in the type of incident described. If the base unit is corroded and has suffered damage to the bulkhead it is probably beyond saving.

The door issue may (or may not) be unrelated to the pothole incident.

And, of course, this is all conjecture without getting up to see it and getting my hands dirty.

Assuming I can make the trip - aside from the damage the owner has disclosed is there a particular tell tale sign of damage to the bulkhead/frame that I should look for?

I have an email in to the seller asking for more details - we will see how forthcoming the info is. I know it sounds daft, but he seems straight up - he mentioned the frame might be bent which isn't the most desireable selling point in a vehicle. I can only assume that he sells a car like me - disclose everything, even if it means a lost sale.

Thank you so much for all of the input - please keep it coming.

Alan.
 
Very difficult to advise on this. If the base unit is genuinly bent, then you are almost beyond resemption. I do believe there is one set up in the US that both has a P6 body jig and knows how to use it. one of our US members had a nasty incident recently and was straightened out satisfactorily - http://www.classicroverforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7636&p=51362#p51362.

So what does the owner mean by bent? The only real way is to stand in front of the car and talk to him. Start by giving him a ring and have a long chat. If you feel he is being less than honest about anything; walk away. If he's being straightforward, go and have a look. Only make up your mind about the car when you can see it with him. He might well have completely unfounded and or uninformed concerns about it,

The issue with the door could well be unconnected. Door hinges and locks do wear, expecially on the drivers door. On the other hand, if it came on instantly at the time of the incident be suspicious.

Chris
 
Can you afford to buy it and if it is beyond economical repair, keep it on as a source of parts for the next one?
It's always good to have a source of panels and other bits for when the bug really bites and they start lining up in your life.... :twisted:
 
unstable load said:
Can you afford to buy it and if it is beyond economical repair, keep it on as a source of parts for the next one?
Click to expand...

John,

I could probably afford to buy it even if it's only useful as a parts car - but, I don't know that I could afford the divorce that would inevitably follow if it turned out to be a parts car :shock:

Alan
 
Is it possible that the damage is of the type that the Australian chassis strengthening kit was intended to prevent - ie torn away around the shock mountings rather than punched up through the inner wing?

If so and the repairs have been carried out well then i wouldn't expect the base unit to be twisted.
 
If the seller is true to his word it would be very unlikely to have bent it at all, it would take a large front or rear shunt or a side impact to bend it also being a USA car it is unlikely to suffer from the tin worm to any extent that is common in UK cars. If its cheap and in good trim I would go for it but of course as every one has said its best to view as that is only common sense though when I bought mine I was 350 miles away and never saw it just relied on a mate (who knew nuthin of P6's or Rovers) who said it was good and bought it, never regreted it.

Graeme
 
I can't help thinking that a minute with a tape measure, comparing both sides of the car would show whether there's any distortion around the door aperture. But that's not very practical if buying it over the phone. Personally, I'd make the trip to see it, then decide. Can you use it as an excuse for a couple of days holiday?
 
So Cal V8 said:
Colin and Ron,

The descriptions of the damage, how it happened and the results are from the seller - so without more I have to take them as a given. The car was apparently driven for about ten or so years after the pothole incident.
Click to expand...
The owner has been driving it for 10 years since the incident? Do you have annual or similar vehicle checks (ie Mot type) over with you, if so I presume it has been through a few since the incident. As others have said, it's really difficult to gain an idea without looking and the suspension and door issues might be totally unrelated.
If you are in any way seriously contemplating a NADA 3500S, and they are few and far between, it has got to be worth a trip to see it. I would only consider buying it sight unseen if I was prepared to write off the cost or be prepared to have it for spares. In that way, if it's all okay, then that's a bonus.
 
hi,
no such thing as an MOT out there. keynshams 3500'S was being driven daily and back brakes were as good as useless.

ian
 
Ian is correct; there is no annual inspection for safety on a private vehicle in California. We have a smog check every two years, but nothing akin to an MOT for lights, brakes, wipers, etc. You should see some of the pieces of pooh that drive the roads here. Some states have a safety check, but here in California you can drive a death trap, just so long as it passes it's smog check...

It's not uncommon for cars to have inoperative windscreen wipers down here in southern California - I know the song says that it never rains in Southern California - and for most of the year that's true, but... the next line of the song says "but girl don't they warn ya, it pours man it pours", and it does.

I will be calling the seller later this week to have a chat with him about the damage, and depending on how that goes I might take a trip north.

I am begining to wonder if this is a case of two countries divided by a common language - he has told me that the quote to repair all of the damage including the "bent frame" was $1,500 - even if that was over 10 years ago it seems a bit light to cover labour and parts for repairs to the front suspension, inner wing, door alignment and a "bent frame."

When I talk to the seller I hope to uncover exactly what he means by the term "bent frame"
 
I can't help thinking that a minute with a tape measure, comparing both sides of the car would show whether there's any distortion around the door aperture
Click to expand...

Slapping your hand in the gap between the front tires and the inner guard + comparing left and right sides with the wheels in dead-ahead position is a giveaway, as are panel gaps, ( around the hood, top + bottom of the front fenders ) gaps around the windscreen that shouldn't be there and odd creases in the roof panel, firewall, floor and/or front inner guards ( pop the hood! ) Odd-wearing tire patterns, which may have been rotated to the back of the car off the front, will show alignment issues. If the car is bent, this will be near impossible to hide. I would guess to have done enough damage to tweak the frame the point of impact would likely have been the front crossmember under the engine. If that's tucked back on one side then there will be all manner of alignment issues to sort out
A $1500 quote to straighten the car might well mean that that there isn't that much drama; if the seller was given a written quote + still has that, the body shop may have itemized what they were planning to do ( eg; Remove windscreen, pull bottom of left "A" pillar, reset door, replace front X-member" ) A visual inspection will give you a much better idea of the cars condition if you take your time + the seller isn't trying to deceive you, which is a big Plus

GW
 
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