(Budget) Historic Rally Car Project

Hi All,

People are still sending me the odd pic from the West Cork Retro Rally and I’m still promised more!!

I thought I’d post this one, some autotest posts are more solid than others, I’m very glad I didn’t hit this one!!! Last test of the event, I was really going for it, didn’t exactly blitz everyone but I was certainly getting more “on the pace”.

Tim
 

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Hi,

One last one then I'll shut-up about the weekend :) it was great though!!!

Next event is a one day event in mid/late July (really must check!!!).

Tim
 

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Tim

Love the shots, it is just not something that you see in Australia (that WILL change when Pooh get going). Are you going to put a roll cage in the car or any other race type gear? Pooh is booked in to have his roll cage fitted in the next few weeks so check out my posts to see what it looks like once done.

I wish that I could be out there competing instead of uncovering horrors on Pooh. I just cannot leave well enough alone............

Cheers

GUY :D
 
Hi,

The plan was always to develop the car from a basis of simple and reliable, yes we had a slight issue with the damper but we found the root cause and that is now sorted. We’ll work on quick and competitive later.

The events don’t require a roll cage but it is on the list as a possible direction to go but there are other developments needed. The car needs a stronger hand brake, it will turn on the hand brake when on the loose but on the dry hard tarmac no way. Everything is very very good or new in the brake system but still not strong enough. Being able to turn the wheel with one hand at will would also be good, power steering maybe?

Being a pair of rather anal mechanical engineers we’ve analysed our performance to death and the biggest gains are to be had with getting the average speed stuff right(er), see earlier posting. We tended to score very well for long(ish) periods then brain fade would set in and we’d have a couple of maximums, we need to knock that on the head. It would be good to be better on the Autotests or the special tests but there numbers are low within the events so there is less to be gained. This is rallying like it was in the 50/60s not modern rallying in old cars, which is what you see more of on the TV, you won’t see us on TV.

The classes are divided by year and type of car, 31st Dec.68 is an important break point as saloons are divided pre and post this date, that date is chosen as it basically means pre and post Ford Escort. If we wanted to be more class competitive we should have used a very early V8 (theoretically I’d have to run Auto) or a more tuned 4 cylinder car, but I have what I have!!!

Tim
 
That's a very sensible list of priorities. Sounds like first on the list is some sort of Halda set up in front of the passenger!

The hand brake issue is interesting. It's worth checking forst off that you have everything set up correctly. I'd recommend fitting a new handbrake cable. These seem to have a disproportionate impact on the performance of the system. It's critical that there is enough slack in the system to allow the rear adjusters to operate - many people do things up too tight thinking that there are too many clicks to bring the hand brake on. Lots of posts on here re setting the system up.

If that doesn't satisfy requirements there are two options. First is to source a set of Dunlop rear brakes from a pre '66 2000 to replace your current Girlings. Reckoned to be a better brake all round on the back. Second is to replace the rear brakes complete. Alan at Classeparts has two options - using either Sierra Cosworth calipers or Audi calipers. In each case with a bespoke disc. Not sure about the Audi, but my view was that the Sierra option was going to be a tad overbraked at the back - I proposed using Redstuff pads to compensate. That being the case it might well suit your requirements to a T! Not sure what your regs on such a significant mod are like though.

Don't forget that there are a couple of very quick and easy wins to be had on engine power. Substituting K&N's either directly onto the carb inlets, or hidden within the existing filter housing as I did, should win you around 7 to 10bhp. Replacing the engine driven fan with electric should also liberate a significant amount for use at the rear wheels. Electronic ignition and Magnecor plugleads will ensure that theoretically available power is actually present (the V8 is extremely sensitive to quality of ignition components). The exhaust on auto's is also extremely restrictive. Either make sure you have 3500S manifolds and system - which are a larger bore and worth around 3 to 5 bhp - later autos also have them as standard - or get a bespoke stainless sytem with large bore manifolds for around 7 to 10bhp. After fiddling get a decent rolling road tune, my auto with the ignition mods and air filters only managed 112 at the back wheels but more importantly needed KK needles. Snap response to throttle is astonishing. See:

http://www.classicroverforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6727

Hope that helps.

Chris
 
Be nice to get a baseline power plot before you start playing, then you know what you've gained, people tend to base their efforts on the factory figures, but more often than not your standard engine will be well down on factory figures.
 
Hi,

We have a Brantz int2 fitted already, I sold my Halda twinmaster years ago when their prices first went mad. Halda is more “period” but not as good as a Brantz, much harder to read and use but more importantly calibration is a bollox, you have to carry handfuls of gear wheels so that you can set your trip to match the organisers exactly. Organisers these days don’t seem so concerned about having there trip set accurately before producing the route book, they just give you a “standard mile” to set yours to before you start.

The exhaust manifolds on my car are the larger bore ones but the exhaust is still the standard Auto one, although I made my own back section using Jetex standard silencers and elbows, very quite which is great.

My speedo is no where near calibrated but most people use the rev counter to control speed anyway, I’ve marked mine up against my satnav, seems to work well enough. I’d like a really accurate digital speedo but for the moment the rev counter will have to do.

Engine mods are on the cards too but power isn’t the key at the moment. I could do with an electric cooling fan but that’s about it for the moment. Electronic ignition is also a maybe but the points based system on the car seems to be doing the job for the moment. I do have a friendly Rolling Road that I can use, old analogue one but the cost is very low and the guy that owns it knows us well enough now that he’ll make sure we have everything tied down well then just leave use to it!!! I have the LM1 we usually for setting up fuel injection but I’d need to weld a boss into the exhaust so as to get a good reading.

I like the idea of hanging a second pair of small hydraulic only callipers on the standard disk to produce a completely separate hand brake system, leaving the standard calliper there to work as a manual hand brake and with the foot brake. I haven’t even looked at this yet. I’m pretty sure my standard system is set-up right, I take your point on the cable and might try that for a “quick fix”.

Tim
 
Hi All,

We competed in the QUB summer lanes “Rally” at the weekend, a strange experience for me as I was sat on the “wrong” side of the car reading the maps!!

The QUB summer lanes Rally is a now annual event based around Templepatrick just outside Belfast. The principle has always been as much fun as possible for as little money as possible, entry was £60 with another £5 each to become club members, pretty cheap by modern standards. The structure of the event was a series of blasts down farm lanes with these groups of lanes linked by road sections. So as to run under a “navigation rally” permit the average speed over the private lane sections has to be less than 30. This sounds rather pedestrian but these are very tight roads, where the lanes were more open cones were added to slow everyone down also code boards that could only be read when stop were used midway down the straights to do the same thing. To keep the number of entrants high enough to keep costs down “modern” cars can also run so the entry list contains a wide cross section of cars.

So how did we do? We finished 13 out of 26 which might sound not so good but as always there is more to the story. On sections that were open enough for us to get round cleanly we set time well inside the top 10 but now and again a section was just too tight and we dropped 10 or 15 seconds doing 3 point turns, we NEED a better hand brake. The car is very very strong though!!!

We beat some quick Midgets, some Escorts, a Mini and a good few “Modern” cars, the P6 really really surprises people and they no longer joke about it!!!

I must say the Handling kit that Alan of Classeparts sells really works, in the pics attached we are really really trying so note the lack of roll. If you look at the long list of pictures posted on http://www.richardearneyphotography.co. ... nes%202010
that is indeed an upside down Renault Clio in a river!!!!!

I’ve posted the few pictures of us going for it!!!

Results are get-able on http://www.anicc.org.uk/Resources/Docum ... esults.pdf if your interested.

Thanks

Tim
 

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Extremely impressed with the photo site! Looks like you all had a great deal of fun! We used to run a very similar format of 12 car events when I was at Uni - a very long time ago. Except ours were run at night to add to the sport. We used to have a fearsome plotting procedure at the start of the event which would keep us in the car park for half an hour translating tulips etc into a usable road book.That ensured we kept within the 30mph. Plus we had clues etc around the course, much as you describe, to eliminate any need to marshall controls.

Been thinking about the handbrake problem. Does anyone on here know if a Dunlop set up at the rear (instead of the Girling) would give a handbrake with the sort of bite needed to initiate tail slides? And how easy is it to convert a Girling car back to Dunlop?

Problem with the Rover is that it is physically large to use the alternative method of steering away from the bend and then flicking in. You'd need substantially more space than is evident in the photos!

Chris
 
I know it's sort of counter-productive, but do you think outboard disks / calipers would potentially give a better handbrake ?
 
Great pics, between yours and the Capri it looks like an episode of the Professionals 8)
Are you allowed a hydraulic handbrake as an addition? Must be a way to sort it :| Different lever pivot maybe? :)
 
Hi, I don't know what level of mods you are allowed. You could try plumbing
a master cylinder into the brake line to the rear brakes and connect to
a second handbrake lever. This would act normally on the foot brake and
would give you rear braking only when lever pulled.

Colin
 
Hi,

Thanks for the comments, it was a super day, even though I wasn’t driving, if you have a looked at the results all I can say is dam those pesky Toyotas as without them strong class finish was on the cards. Although I really can’t be too sore on them as there inclusion keeps the costs down for everyone and keeps the sport alive.

For the next event we’re thinking matching tweed jackets and pipes, to go with the image, the Capri crew could wear a curly wig etc….

I think the weakness of the hand brake is pretty inherent in the design, whether it is pulled on by the cable of the hydraulics it all works on the same pivot system.

I would think outboard disks would put twisting loads into the shell were loads aren’t suppose to be.

Our best bet, I think, is an alternative (or possibly additional) calliper operated by hydraulics.

Rules in N.I. are pretty open, if we venture further afield then “modern” bits might be an issue.

For those that haven’t looked at the pictures, here is a picture of the Clio “parked” in the river. On the first lap round we so nearly went in there!!! At the end of the section we were going far to hard to stop straddle the line and as we skidded toward the line it became evident that if we didn’t lift off the brake a steer we were going in the drink. Thankfully Gavin is a very cool customer as well as a truly stunning driver, so the brake came off and disaster was avoided.

Chris, Gavin and I also started our rallying together at university doing 12 car Rallies, Night navigation events etc… kept doing them for some 13 years before kids etc…. started to take over my life. Gavin went a different path, staying away for kids etc…., probably how he went on to win the N.Ireland Hillclimb championship (outright not a class win!!) in a largely home built car. So we started all the nonsense some 25 years ago, you’d have thought we’d have grown up by now!!! I could share picks of only cars we used, mainly Mini’s, Imp’s, Dolly Sprints and in the later days 205GTIs, sadly I don’t have picks of them all as this all predated digital cameras etc….

Thanks again,

Tim
 

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I think I've come up with an answer to your handbrake problem. Convert back to Dunlop rear brakes! Stan (Vaultsman is currently running a thread on his new early 2000 and has put up some excellent pictures of the Dunlop rear brake arrangement: http://www.classicroverforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7854 . I believe these brakes are common to contemporary Jaguar, so parts and overhaul is easy. You can even fiddle with the size of the main cylinders if you want to!

Only minor problem is how to get hold of a set! Early cars aren't so common now, so If anyone knows....

Chris
 
EccentricRichard said:
If you want to try and make it slide, there's always the old trick of stab at the clutch to unsettle the rear then add loads of power...
Click to expand...

Could he be fighting a lost cause, I thought the P6 rear suspension design was chosen to give good grip. Maybe some NOS will help it to break loose. :LOL:
 
Hi,

Certainly the P6 has loads of rear grip, it’s ability to almost jump from one auto test pylon to the next (even in the loose) is quite something to behold. When compared to how Mk.1 Escorts or MG Midgets, even quite highly developed ones, behave between the pylons the P6 is stunning. As indicated this high level of rear end grip isn’t always an asset, on dry tarmac or concrete you can pretty much give up on the notion of drifting, on the loose it’s great. In the last event we simply used the tight turning circle or did 3 point turns when on smooth surfaces. We're used Toyo tyres and they seem excellent for grip, life is anouth thing, rears are already tired looking ;)

The strength of the rear diff has been a constant concern, a fellow competitor who used to use a P6 can’t believe we got through 2 events already without failure, as he seldom finished a event because of diff failure. I think both Gav and me are extremely hard tryers and no quarter is give once the marshal counts down to zero but we also try to balance this with a little mechanical sympathy. So far it’s worked, although the other front damper has now broken just like the first and I don’t thing the same fault exists on this side. We’re slightly concerned that the bottom mount, onto the body, is too ridged.

The Summer Lanes 2010 event has some coverage on youtube if you search for it you’ll find clips of the whole event, including us obviously, passing the same points as the still pictures were taken at. I think one of the “moderns” also took in car clips of all the sections if you want to see what it looked like from the business end!!

Plan is to do:

TSCC multi-venue Auto-test on the 4th Sept. http://www.tsccni.co.uk/

Cultra hill climb on the 11th Sept. http://www.tsccni.co.uk/cultra.htm

IMRC Retro Rally 18th & 19th Sept. http://www.imrcretro.com/

UAC Circuit of Ireland retro 29th, 30th &31st Oct

I’ll drive the 2 Retro Rallys and fingers crossed the Autotest but Gav. (ex-N.I. Hillclimb champion!) can do the Hillclimb.

Car will hardly cool between now and the end of the year ;)

Tim
 
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