Ethanol in petrol.

[darth sidious]

From the recent Valvemaster postings...

Hello Graeme,

Even with the seals all changed, there is still the problem of the SU carburettors or in your case the Webber. My understanding is that the ethanol fuel being a blend does not atomise in the same way as straight fuel does, and this from an operational point of view causes running problems. There is also the problem of corrosion which will occur within the carburettor at points where the ethanol fuel makes contact wth dissimilar metals which together are in contact with each other. All in all ethanol blended fuels are not an option at any time, not with carburettors at least.

Ron.

Then we in the UK have a potential problem; virtually all UK petrol now has some ethanol in it, even V-Power is no longer guaranteed to be ethanol-free as it once was.

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Introduction-to-Ethanol.htm, and I quote:-

At present many filling stations in the UK have 5-10% ethanol in their petrol, so you are probably using ethanol without realising it. This is called E5 (5% ethanol 95% petrol) or E10 (10% ethanol 90% petrol). Tesco for example in conjunction with Greenenergy have been selling E5 petrol containing Brazilian sugar cane ethanol since 2005.

Almost all contemporary cars can be run on E10 fuel without any modification. If higher concentrations of ethanol are to be used then modification is usually necessary - for example, ethanol is much more corrosive and abrasive than petrol. Therefore ethanol in fuel will clean old deposits from the fuel lines and fuel tank and gunge up the fuel filter. When a car is converted to run on ethanol it needs to have its fuel filter changed very soon afterwards. Once the old deposits are gone, then fuel filters will need changing as often as the did before.

If my understanding is correct, the term 'contemporary' means "of this period", i.e. 'contemporary' = now.

I wonder if classic car owners (not just us P6 nuts) are aware the petrol they put in may be harmful from something other than the lack of lead? :?:

 

[Tofufi]

From the recent Valvemaster postings...

There is also the problem of corrosion which will occur within the carburettor at points where the ethanol fuel makes contact wth dissimilar metals which together are in contact with each other. All in all ethanol blended fuels are not an option at any time, not with carburettors at least.

Ron.

Sounds a bit odd to me, if I'm honest. VW were been supplying Beetles in Brazil capable of running on neat (100%) Ethanol blends since the 1970s, fuelling provided by nothing more complex than a pair of carburettors. The carbeurettor internal parts were, I believe, nickel plated to prevent oxidation due to the water content of the ethanol.

To use Ethanol, they also increased the compression ratio slightly and used cooler rating spark plugs - and not changing the CR would surely just result in a slight decrease in power?

I should, of course, point out that I'm no expert on SU carbs - I don't have them on my P6B, as I've a Holley 390 instead.

 

[rover100rich]

http://www.roverp4dg.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2586
we recently had a discussion on the p4 forum and it transpired that the gent in germany is using petrol with ethanol added , i found australian research which seemed to indicate that engines with carbs would be likely to experience some negative issues , hot starting being one of them , i have seen petrol here in ireland for sale with added ethanol and the octane level is 98 but the energy level is less than mormal unleaded , what we need is methanol!maybe as stated some small mods are needed , the vw beetle engine was generally low powered and maybe more suited to this , i dont know ,research would be welcomed,rich

 

[SydneyRoverP6B]

Here is a link detailing all (and there are lots of them.. :shock: ) of the changes that need to be made in order to run efficiently with ethanol fuel.

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id32.html

Engines also consume more ethanol blended fuel for any given distance travelled compared to running on straight petrol. In other worlds,..mpg goes down. So even if the fuel initially costs less as E10 does here in Australia, the fact that you use more of it to travel the same distance ultimately means that is costs you more.

Here is another article...http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1217

Here is a link from the motoring organisation here in N.S.W....http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring ... in-petrol/

Ron.

 

[darth sidious]

Thanks for those, Ron! I too wondered how the the proportion of ethanol would affect MPG.

Here are some more links :-

http://www.petrolnews.co.uk/environment

Cars in the UK can currently run on about 10 per cent of ethanol in petrol, but the corrosive effect of ethanol means increasing levels above this can damage the engine if the necessary changes have not been made.

http://www.jawaczownersclub.co.uk/technical_advice13.htm and http://www.tr-register.co.uk/fbhvc.php,
These sites suggests that ethanol may increase the chances of vapour-lock, a known trait of P6B's! :evil:

http://www.whatprice.co.uk

Vehicle engines require no modifications to run on E10 and vehicle warranties are unaffected also.

http://www.shell.com.au/home/conten...oad/fuels/e10/myth_busting_ethanol_in_petrol/

http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/2010/01/21/ethanol-in-petrol

 

[TokyoP6B]

I wonder if classic car owners (not just us P6 nuts) are aware the petrol they put in may be harmful from something other than the lack of lead?

Widely discussed on forums + the corrosive effect on the fuel system being of most concern; adding a capful of 2-stroke oil ( a few cc's ) every 2nd or 3rd tankful does the trick apparently

GW

 

[chrisyork]

That's a surprisingly sound tip! I can't think why I've not heard or thought of it before. A cheap alternative to Wynn's or STP!

Chris

 

[darth sidious]

Widely discussed on forums + the corrosive effect on the fuel system being of most concern; adding a capful of 2-stroke oil ( a few cc's ) every 2nd or 3rd tankful does the trick apparently

GW

That's a surprisingly sound tip! I can't think why I've not heard or thought of it before. A cheap alternative to Wynn's or STP!

Chris

Certainly!

Has anyone on here (in the UK or otherwise) had any experience problems with tanks/pipes/carbs etc with any classic/older car? I did wonder if it would affect MPG, but I admit that I had no idea it was potentially harmful. It does pay to ask and look around!

I think everyone agrees that any greater proportion of ethanol higher than 10% (i.e. 90% petrol, 10% ethanol) is just asking for trouble in classic/older cars, the contention is whether ethanol proportions of equal-to-or-less-than 10% are going to cause any mid-long term harm.

Possibly it's a government ploy to rid the road of the classic greats and older cars! :twisted:

 

[TokyoP6B]

Possibly it's a government ploy to rid the road of the classic greats and older cars!

Conspiracy or no, it's become like "Spy vs. Spy"; with the ZDDP disappearing from engine oil + corrosive ethanol being added to petrol ( and valve-seat cushioning lead long-gone ) the Classic car enthusiast will have to stay one step ahead of the changes to keep winning ( ! )

Hopefully there are enough of us to lobby for exemption if older cars are ever legislated off the road at some stage in the future; Japan, for eg, banned the re-registration of all Diesel vehicles ( in 2001, IIRC ) in all urban areas, which effectively ended the domestic sales of the diesel Toyota Landcruiser + wiped out entire fleets of taxi-cabs, trucks + passenger vehicles ( the Diesel Toyota Crown had sold in the 10's of thousands for decades ) Even diesel Mercedes owners had to hang up their keys...

GW

 

[chrisyork]

That's astonishing! As everyone on here ought to understand the diesel engine is intrinsically more efficient than petrol because of its much higher compression ratio. Even bad diesels are better than good petrols. Hence they are much better from the point of view of global warming / CO2 emissions.

Perhaps the explanation is the appalling particulate emissions of most Japanese diesels! I see them in large numbers in Thailand and even the latest examples are far worse than Europeans. Even so, all they had to do was to ban pre Euro 3! I think we're up to Euro 6 now, but Euro 3 is generally adeqaute to kill off obvious particulates.

Chris

 

[TokyoP6B]

Chris,
emissions were the issue; the problem was never the diesel engines per se, but the refineries refusing to lower the sulphur content in the fuel itself; smoky Japanese diesels in Thailand are typically the result of owner/operators failing to give their vehicles essential maintenance like injector cleaning and/or airfilter changes, the economics being cheaper to dump more fuel in than get any servicing done, and of course a diesel won't stop running....
and presumably there is little or no enforcement of emissions standards anyway

GW