Frame of Reference - Steering and Other Concerns

T

truebrit

New Member
Hi -- this is my first post, and I'm glad to be a part of the forum.

I live in the states Seattle, Washington), and P6s, or any Rovers for that matter, are few and far between. However, I have found a 3500S (US spec) for sale that has a beautiful paint job, and supposedly a rebuilt engine and other mechanical refurbishments (brakes, for one). Trouble is, as much as I worship these cars, this one is the only one I've ever driven -- so I have no frame of reference to determine whether it's a good example or not. some of the worry points:
1. VERY loose steering -- lots of free play, although actual handling is good.
2. Car feels sluggish -- I know these aren't hot rods, but there isn't that nice V8 torque I was expecting, and there's a bit of hesitation on take off.
3. No surface rust at all, and he claims the box sections behind the rear seats are fine, but of course that's always the fear factor.
4. The interior is original and complete (except for carpets), but a but shabby (so needs a re-do).

The sluggishness, along with brakes that seemed a bit "groany " (but bit well, might be from lack of use -- the owner only drives it to keep the fluids moving. But who knows?

In any event -- can someone give me an idea of what a well sorted 3500 should feel like? That would be a big help. Thanks. :D
 
before worrying about the performance - which should feel lively, steering should not be vauge although a little play at wheel (1" or so I think) is ok - look for rust - remove back seat bases they lift out and look for rust towards the out side of the car - your looking at the inner sill, check then as much of both inner sills by lifting up carpet in all 4 footwells. move out side car and remove the 4 plugs that cover the jacking points on the sills and have a good look there, now lye down and tap the bottom of the sill, just inboard of the screwed on outer sill, all the way along with a screw driver handle - you will get a dull sound or worse if its rusty. Then open trunk (boot) and remove spare wheel, lift rubber mats and check both sides of boot that suspension mount is not rotting, and at same time check all round boot floor edges. Now lift bonnet and look for rust round outer edges for innerwings/engine by and feel up under the front outerwings for missing or rusty inner wing edges. IF that lot is all ok then its worth looking at the mechanical bits. Good luck
 
Hi truebrit

Welcome to the forum!

That sounds quite a find in the US! I presume this will be an auto with the three scoops on the bonnet?

I presume it has power steering - I think all the US spec 3500S did. In Europe we are now accustomed to our cars having rack and pinion steering which is precise and instant. The P6 has a worm and roller steering box and this is naturally very loose around the straight ahead, but once loaded up into a turn is perfectly "normal". I'd say free movement from 5 to to 5 past would be extremely normal, perhaps even a bit more. All steering parts including (I think) new power strg box, recond idler box and all links should be possible to source here, so whatever the condition its not a disaster.

Biggest concern with any P6 is the body. If yours has originated in California or other hot state you stand an excellent chance. Otherwise have a root around this forum to start with. Search on Webmaster and have a look at Richard's photos of some of the areas on his convertible conversion. The visible body panels are not the issue - they are just cosmetic bolt on. What matters is the base unit structure underneath. To get first clues lift the rear seat bases and have a look in the sqare well at the outer edge of the seat base. then give the D post - a double skinned curved area visible with the back door open in front of and running behind the rear wing - a good tap and poke. Finally see if you can get any clues to the condition of the sills / inner edge of the floors. These are hidden behind bolt on cover panels. With these off you have a shaped outer face, with the inner face running down into the floor, the two forming a box section. This area is often bodged! One easy way might be to take off the polished stainless tread plates from the top of the box section. That should allow you to peel back carpet to get some sort of a look at the inner section, and of course you can get some clues from underneath. If any of these are rotten then there are a few other places to look as well. If they are solid you've probably got a good one. Come back for further advice having checked these out.

If the car has been in a hot state then it may need a lot of rubber - this is nearly all available from Australia.

Performane wise this is not a road burner by modern standards. Think 140 hp. American cars did suffer from being fitted with an auto choke which didn't work well. Easy to swap for Europe spec manual choke. Provided all cylinders are firing you ought simply to be looking at a tuning issue. Parts are very easy from the UK where this engine is extremely common. You may even find Buick bits that fit (that's where the engine came from). It is quite picky about oil change frequency (3,000 mls recommended - manual might say 5,000 or 6,000) and if neglected might be missing a few cam lobes. But again not difficult to sort, you can see the cam in the top of the engine once the carbs are off.

Sounds more like the auto box might be more of a problem than the engine? It's a Borg Warner 35 so I presume that would be easy to sort in the US. Check the fluid colour on the dipstick - if black you could have an issue.

Brakes groaning? That sounds odd; they're known to sqeal if the right shims etc aren't in place. Rear brakes are very prone to leaks as well. See if you could get it on a rolling road and check brake efficiency's.

Overall sounds promising though! Has it got air by the way? That was the only option in the US.

Best of luck and looking forward to hearing how you get on.

Chris
 
I think I know what you are talking about with the brakes, since you seem to suggest your car has no carpeting. Back in the 1970s I used to drive 3500 police cars and in an effort to either reduce cost, cut down on weight, or just to make us uncomfortable they didn't have the usual amount of insulation material fitted. The result was that when you braked you got a lot of noise from the rear discs inside the car. I've just stripped the interior out of my 2000TC ready to fit a roll cage and it is very noisy under braking now. The other thing is performance, I drove a rebuilt California spec 1973 (I think) 3500 in Canada earlier this year if it had 140 bhp I'm George Bush! I'm guessing that the start point for the US spec engines was the Range Rover / MGB GT V8 unit with 7.5-1 compression and about 135 bhp without any smog control additions. Don't be put off by this as you can still get respectable figures from this lump without major work I got 175 bhp out of my B V8 mainly by using lots of trick bits from MSD, Edelbrook etc.
 
Thanks so much for all these replies -- extremely helpful!

The advice on how and where to search for rust is especially welcome, and seems to echo what I've read in the various P6 buyer's guides. Trouble is, I'm not sure how keen the owner -- any owner -- will be with me taking seats out and such. But if that's what must be done, well...he'll have to suffer.

This is in fact a US spec car with the 3 hood scoops -- plus electric windows, but no a/c (although it does have a manual choke). It has spent all of its life in Washington state, where we have lots of old cars with little or no rust (at least in Seattle). We don't salt the roads in the winter, the summers are dry, and perhaps our wet winters (lots of rain, little snow) offset the dry summers, giving moisture to rubber seals!

As I said in the post, the noisy brakes and sluggish perfromance may be from lack of use -- I'm sure a tune-up is in order. And I'm sure the emission control stangled engine doesn't help. However, the steering concerns me, as I would say it's quite a bit more than 1" (more like 2 or 3). Very unstable feeling, and I believe the hallmark of these cars is their solid and secure road feel. I didn't get that from this car. But I imagine the worst it could be is the steering box or something replaceable. There's also the interior, which I undertsnad bits for are getting harder to source.

Thanks agian for the all the advice -- I'll have to do a more thorough exam and make a decision. Of course, I could source one of the comparatively many that come up for sale in the UK (Percival Motor Company in Kent has a supposedly restored example)...Cheers.
Jeff
 
The front brakes on mine made groaning noises, thanks to cheap brake pads! I now have decent quality brake pads fitted, and no groaning noise :)
 
hi truebrit,
you are right about the emission control choking the car, the carbs were also slightly different to ours giving you even less power, but they can be junked along with all the emission control and a decent set of carbs can be put on in there place. you will have as standard on the car sundym glass, three hood scoops, electric windows, impact beams in the doors, front door pockets, centre console is metal covered in leather ( ours are plastic ) ice-lert, power steering, leather steering wheel and polished 'S' wheel trims. options were air-con, boot mount spare etc.

ian
 
You can get a heck of a lot of power out of those MGB blocks.
I have a friend who, on the dyno this saturday, managed to get 250bhp out of his BGT V8.
 
I'm a bit late in getting back to you on this but hope this is useful

Peformance

First I'm not sure what you are using for comparisons.

Performance is relative; even in it's prime the 3500 wasn't a hot rod but gave decent performance with some degree of refinement, rather than leaving streaks of rubber along the highway. I think my ancient Chevy pickup might get off the line quicker, but with rather less style and comfort. (These days even a base 4 banger Camry has 158hp and SUV makers are quoting quarter mile times of under 10 seconds...)

The Federal 3500s used high compression engines, and were designed to use leaded fuel. To run on what passes for premium fuel these days you will have to set the timing to about TDC rather than 6 degrees before and that will take the edge of it. The apparent relative lack of performance will also be due to the dreadful strangling effect of the emissions controls. Older cars aren't subject to emissions testing so I suggest stripping of all the extra plumbing so it can breathe properly.

If you're getting hesitiation then the first thing should be a tune up. You might find that makes a lot of difference without dong anything else.

Steering

As others have said the recirculating ball system is a bit less precise than modrn rack and pinion steering and it is a bit over assisted by modern standards.

That said an inch of free play at the wheel is too much - it should be about 3/8" with PAS. The play can be adjusted quite easily provided the steering box isn't too worn. Loose steering could be a simple matter of adjustment, but if you are getting any shimmy or shaking it could suggest worn ball joins, bushes or idler. Unfortunately it's really hard to diagnose something without first hand experience
 
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