LOSS OF BRAKES!!

A

aml194

New Member
all of a sudden i have lost brakes, if you pump them they seem to work? there seems to be no fluid loss? has anybody come across this before?
 
Hi aml,

The fluid is very likely to be in the servo. I had this happen twice; the reservoir emptied totally but no fluid spilt on the floor or inner wings etc.

I suspect you'll need to refurbish the brake master & slave cylinders (& servo while you're at it). The seals will be worn out.

It's not too bad a job; just take your time.

Cheers,

Phil.
 
Check for leaks on the rear calipers, they can leak into the cover with no external signs. A leak on the system can often draw air in, giving the symptoms you have. Check the whole system.
 
thanks for the responses, the reservoir is full? there is no loss of fluid? after letting the car rest for half an hour it all seemed fine?
 
When was the fluid last changed? Brake fluid absorbs water moisture and under heavy braking very old fluid can "boil" reducing braking effectiveness considerably
 
There is a small pool of brake fruid somewher under the rear calipers of my Rover right now. And i am at work about 50 miles from home.
The efficiency of the brakes is not noticeably affected, but i have to keep an eye at the fluid level. I will put the car on a pit to take a look before driving it home.
It seems that the inevitable happened and i will have to replace the seals at the rear.
 
The rear brakes don't do a great deal under normal driving conditions, one of the reasons they give so much trouble. So until the leak introduces air into the system you probably wouldn't notice.

It's not too dificult to do the seals so get them done before you really need them ! Also worth replacing the flexi hoses if you have no record of previous replacement.
 
To confirm and amplify, the flexi hoses have a well earned rputation for collapsing internally leaving no outward signs. This leads either to no rear brakes or rear brakes failing to release.

Chris
 
I have checked the car underneath and the leak seems to be from the pivot pin of the left caliper. At least this is how it looks like. I tried with a thin long screwdriver to move sligtly the dust cap seal to check for fluid inside but i did not succed.

Curiously the fluid level did not drop at all. But it had droped last week after a drive that i tested the brakes a few times. It continued to drop a little while it had not been driven for a few days.
The pedal is a little more soft so perhaps air is already in.
The hoses don't look very fresh so they will be replaced too.

When the car is on a pit it looks as if it's not that difficult to work on the rear brakes. But this is not an option at the moment. I just had it steam washed underneath (along with the engine bay) to make working under the car a more pleasant (???) experience :p

I don't think that i will find the time to do it right now, but ... if i lower the diff, do i have to remove the discs too?
The problem is that i will probably work alone. So i have to avoid tasks that require a second person to help.
 
If its peeing fluid I dont think you have the time NOT to do it!
Remember the feeling when the pedal didnt do anything the first time?
Wait till pumping it doesnt work. I can tell you for nothing it'll be a brown trouser moment.
Get it sorted quickly or stop using the car for your own safety.
 
JC. said:
If its peeing fluid I dont think you have the time NOT to do it!
Remember the feeling when the pedal didnt do anything the first time?
Wait till pumping it doesnt work. I can tell you for nothing it'll be a brown trouser moment.
Get it sorted quickly or stop using the car for your own safety.
Click to expand...
Of course i will not use the car!
It is my second car anyway so it can wait patiently without any worries.

But i think that leak from the rear seals (provided you keep an eye on fluid level) will not lead to a sudden loss of brakes. It does warn you first. As it does right now.
Flexible hose failure is another story though!
 
Demetris said:
I have checked the car underneath and the leak seems to be from the pivot pin of the left caliper. At least this is how it looks like. I tried with a thin long screwdriver to move sligtly the dust cap seal to check for fluid inside but i did not succed.

Curiously the fluid level did not drop at all. But it had droped last week after a drive that i tested the brakes a few times. It continued to drop a little while it had not been driven for a few days.
The pedal is a little more soft so perhaps air is already in.
The hoses don't look very fresh so they will be replaced too.

When the car is on a pit it looks as if it's not that difficult to work on the rear brakes. But this is not an option at the moment. I just had it steam washed underneath (along with the engine bay) to make working under the car a more pleasant (???) experience :p

I don't think that i will find the time to do it right now, but ... if i lower the diff, do i have to remove the discs too?
The problem is that i will probably work alone. So i have to avoid tasks that require a second person to help.
Click to expand...
I overhauled my rear brakes last summer. After I had put them together again a drop of brake fluid was discovered at exactly the same spot as you mentioned, during its MOT that is, and it came from within the caliper: the cylinder has to be sanded very carefully, because the slightest scratch can cause leakage, the man at the garage explained. Or else the rubber ring around the piston could be torn, he suggested. Well, I took everything apart again, sanded the cylinder, but I also afterwards fastened the dust covers very thoroughly, because I didn't want to do the whole thing again and at least the rubber ring around the piston wasn't damaged, as I feared before (that WOULD be dangerous, because then it could tear apart completely when braking heavily).
When you want to drop the differential you'll have to loosen the bolts from the drive shafts, which effectively means taking the brake discs off, yes.
Do pay attention (as is stressed in the manual) to prevent the lever that operates the hand brake from falling out of the caliper, when remounting the caliper, because in that case a tappet falls into a hole and you'll have to take the complete caliper off and apart again to put things together. It ALMOST happened to me!

I did it all by myself, so it can be done alone. I even changed the differential alone. :O
 
Hi. I have a similar problem, the brakes on my '74 V8 worked perfectly when I laid the car up for six months, but when I started her up to go for MOT Test pedal goes flat to the boards, no loss of fluid anywhere, I've checked all the likely places, like in the servo, and the rear calipers and the garage floor! If I give the pedal a few pumps, perfect brake, but only the one application, the second time the pedal will go down to the floor. Now the odd thing about it is if I pump the pedal and get a good pedal, I can press as hard as I like and for as long as I like, and the pressure does not fade, but if I take my foot off, and straight back on, the pedal goes down to the floor. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. May I add that I have bled the system four times, after the bleed there is an inprovement but it only lasts for a couple of hours.
Julian Best.



Edited By JULIAN BEST on 1204365206
 
The seals in the master or servo cylinder need replacing.
One of the seals in the master, stops the pressure from going back into the main reservoir,its works when you pump the pedal fast,but as soon as pressure is released,and gentle pressure applied it seeps past again.
there is a similar seal in the servo slave cylinder,but when this leaks you loose fluid into the servo.
If you have no fluid loss,I would suspect its the main master cyl seals that are at fault!
It was when mine went the same way.
If you take the cap off the reservoir,and get a mate to gently push the pedal down,if its faulty,you may see a slight rise, or swirl in the level as the fluid enters the pot! if its working correctly,the level drops slightly as the fluid transfers to the calipers,and rises back to level when pressure is released.



Edited By pilkie 0 on 1204391809
 
Many thanks for that Pilkie, I had suspected that it might be the brake master, and discovered that Wadhams have new Girling ones in stock, price £65.00 + VAT, I have not taken the master off to check it out, but even so, a brake componant of that age should be changed, I think,and not stick a few new rubbers in it although the car has only done 47,000 miles from new. So now that you have come up with the same solution as myself, I will give Wadhams a ring and get the part, and if that doesn,t fix it, at least I will know not to look in that direction anymore, and get a new slave to go with it, although I'm not sure if the slave comes separate to the servo, would you know if it does, or is the servo/slave one unit? I will let you know what progress I make. Cheers for now.
Julian.
 
As you have no loss of brake fluid at all! I would suggest that your calipers are seized. Check the front ones first, jack up car, are the wheels free, then get a person to press your brake peddle hard down , check to see if the brakes are holding.

I forgot to mention that your master cyl might be sticking on, if you press your brake pedal down and it stays on the floor with out returning renew the master cyl or fit new seals.

Julian.



Edited By joblogs on 1204477149
 
JULIAN BEST said:
Many thanks for that Pilkie, I had suspected that it might be the brake master, and discovered that Wadhams have new Girling ones in stock, price £65.00 + VAT, I have not taken the master off to check it out, but even so, a brake componant of that age should be changed, I think,and not stick a few new rubbers in it although the car has only done 47,000 miles from new. So now that you have come up with the same solution as myself, I will give Wadhams a ring and get the part, and if that doesn,t fix it, at least I will know not to look in that direction anymore, and get a new slave to go with it, although I'm not sure if the slave comes separate to the servo, would you know if it does, or is the servo/slave one unit? I will let you know what progress I make. Cheers for now.
Julian.
Click to expand...
Hi Julian.
As you have said "after a few pumps,perfect brake",I gather that all 4 wheels will lock up,and they are not seized up!
I would suggest that for a few quid,you fit new seals in the master cyl first!!!
You should be able to get them from any good local motorfactors,as they are a std Leyland,and other makes seal kit!!
IF!!!! that doesnt work,then buy a replacement master cyl.
You could say the same "age/replace" about all the calipers etc on the car,but that can get really expensive!!
Rebuilt rears can be £200!!! a pair,and they only have 1x50p easily obtained but fiddly to fit seal in them!!
Its normally the handbrake ratchet mechanism that wears out and fails them on an mot!! Pick up a s/h set asap and cheap if they come your way!!
Very Very rarely, will a master be contaminated to the point of being totally useless, unless it has siezed solid due to condensation from a very long layup. If when you take it apart you do find a very fine powdery coating of rust,just give it a good cleanout,make a tube of emery paper and use some oil to smooth the bore out again "sort of honing it"
Then clean/flush with brake fluid and rebuild with new seals.
Good Luck
Dave



Edited By pilkie 0 on 1204490063
 
"Past Parts" in Suffolk can resleeve the cylinders with stainless steel sleeves, then you can reseal them, (Or they will do it). Should the seals fail again in the future the bore will remain servicable.
Silicon brake fluid also helps, but you don't get quite as good a pedal feel.
You should also be able to get the calipers resleeved. There are plenty of s/h internals about to rebuild the mechanicals of the rear calipers.
Book time for a rear caliper overhaul is 54 minutes each (caliper off) and that's plenty, an hour charged labour should be all it takes.
 
Many thanks for taking the time to help me out, this Rover is a new animal to me, never ever worked on one before, and I don't care what anyone says, they are kinda diffferent!!! But I've got to admit, " A GREAT MACHINE " So I will go ahead taking note of all your advice, and will let you know the outcome. Cheers for now.
Julian.
 
Just to add my penny's worth :;):, when my brakes failed they did exactly what 'JULIAN BEST' described. Both the remote servo and master cylinder were shot. And after sourcing the replacements it seems the failed remote servo was from a V8. ???
 
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