Lucky Breathes Easy

The Rovering Member said:
Louvres in the inner wings?

When I was a lad I went on a tour of the Vicarage Car Company who were restoring/renovating and upgrading MK2 Jags and E-Types to order. They had air vents in the inner wings which you opened and closed manually depending on your needs.
Like a heater flap works on the scuttle on a MK2 Jag or 420 etc It was originally done for hot countries but helped here in the summer. Like louvres but could be shut for the winter :D
I've got a picture somewhere in a box with a million other pics I should go through one day :roll:
Goes with your suggestion, only switchable :)
 
Bear in mind that the point just below the windscreen has quite a bit of pressure when the car is at speed. This is why in most cases the intake of the heater / ventilation system is just there! So i would imagine that this makes this point less ideal if you would like to get rid of excessive heat at speed.
I am also in favour of vents in the inner wings.

Demetris
 
Easy to do yourself too I would think. You could always cut a couple of holes & simply have plates held on by self-tappers for easy removal/replacement depending on the season. Not as asthetically pleasing as stamped louvres or an opening vent but it all depends on what you want.
 
Raising the back edge of the bonnet is known to work - it's been used on a number of racers. But it is unsuitable for road use because, as everyone says above, it allows engine fumes to be sucked into the heater intake.

Louvres in the inner wings would also work as far as getting rid of engine bay heat goes. But I'm very nervous of doing this as the bottom of the inner wing and chassis rail is already known to be over weak - hence the Australian mod as now fitted to Lucky. And this area of the car is designed to fold up in an accident, perhaps the first car ever to be so designed. So my judgement for the moment is that the inner wing requires all the strength it can get and louvres are therefore not a good idea. Bear in mind the only people who need this facility are those that drive vigorously - who are just the people who need the inner wing strength!

That left me in copying Rover mode. At least one P7 prototype had louvres in this position on the bonnet, and there are photo's around of a NZ car done this way too. So I don't claim originality! We'll just have to see how the heater gets on once it's fitted. I' have in mind lengthening the rubber seals either end of the heater intake as well. It just depends to what extent the flow out from the louvres moves back towards the centre line of the car. In theoryit ought to get sucked outwards and exit around the screen pillar at waistline level :roll:

Chris
 
I shan't be doing anything with the existing cast iron manifolds. When the ZF box goes in there is a new very large bore system to go with it (won't go round the BW, otherwise I'd already have fitted it!) which has large bore stainless steel manifolds. These will certainly get some form of heat wrap. They'll have to be trial fitted first to weigh up clearances against the engine mounts, but, assuming those are OK, then I intend to get them ceramic coated (like Quattro). If not then I'll be back to the insulating tape.

Chris
 
chrisyork wrote,..
When the ZF box goes in there is a new very large bore system to go with it (won't go round the BW, otherwise I'd already have fitted it!) which has large bore stainless steel manifolds.

Hello Chris,

I wonder how Lucky will perform both in terms of fuel consumption and performance once the large bore manifolds are fitted? My reason for asking is that for a car fitted with an automatic transmission the outcome was usually less than satisfactory, although maximum power may well increase. Primary pipe diameter has a direct bearing on the placement of the torque curve and peak torque so increasing the diameter shifts the curve and the peak further up the rev range, so for normal everyday driving the performance is less than was previously the case. The optimum primary pipe diamter for 3.5 to 4.6 litre engines is 1.5" to 1.625", with the former more suited to the 3.5.

Before having my 4.6 installed I spoke at length with the service manager of Sydney's leading Range Rover service centre where they have a 4 wheel drive dyno. When I asked about extractors he advised against it for a vehicle with an automatic transmission as he said that the testing that they have done revealed a drop in power delivery at engine speeds where the engine would spend most of its time.

Ron.
 
chrisyork said:
Louvres in the inner wings would also work as far as getting rid of engine bay heat goes. But I'm very nervous of doing this as the bottom of the inner wing and chassis rail is already known to be over weak - hence the Australian mod as now fitted to Lucky. And this area of the car is designed to fold up in an accident, perhaps the first car ever to be so designed. So my judgement for the moment is that the inner wing requires all the strength it can get and louvres are therefore not a good idea. Bear in mind the only people who need this facility are those that drive vigorously - who are just the people who need the inner wing strength!
Chris

Quite right, perhaps we should say just wings instead of inner wings. The inner wings have already a cut out at the point where the steering arms pass through. What maybe is reqired is opening flaps on the respective point of the outer wings. They should be effective and they won't look too bad either.

Demetris
 
Like the wing vents on the new jags....

Jaguar_2007_XF_silber_1.jpg
 
Hi Ron.

Quite right - there are actually two considerations. First is that a 4 into 1 system tends to have an extract effect at high revs but not at low, whereas a 4 into 2 into 1 can have an extract effect at much lower rpm. Second is that you can indeed overdo manifold pipe size. The objective is to maintain a roughly constant flow rate all the way down the system (ie you need to design the whole system as a single unit - not design the manifold as a stand alone item) without any one element of the system acting as a throttle.

After quite a lot of fiddling we decided that a 4 into 2 into 1 manifold of the required bore sizes could not be fitted as a single unit, it would have to be broken up and assembled in situ. I thought this was too big a compromise, introducing maintenance issues. Therefore we settled on a 4 into 1 manifold. The port legs are sized to comply with the criteria above, the whole system to match the gas generating capability of a 4.6. And yes the engine has a high torque cam to suit an auto. We'll see how it gets on on the 3.5! The logic here being not to change too much at once, so the box will go in and get debugged on the 3.5 before moving on to the 4.6 and dealing with its carburation/injection and ignition issues.

All that sounds terribly well planned. In my experience engineering rarely turns out that way! For that reason it is always best to make use of the best available practical experience, even if contrary to the theory. This system was designed in conjunction with RPi on the basis that most of their product finishes up in front of an auto box, so they have some chance of knowing what they are up to! As I said earlier, it remains to be seen how it all turns out!

I ought to add that the cast iron manifold is generally acknowledged to be a major drag on the 3.5's performance. Even the slightly larger 3500S manifold is still terribly tight, and what on earth were they thinking of taking the offside branch under the sump and generating an unequal Y! Rule of thumb (subject to getting all the above right!) seems to be that a "decent" manifold is worth a minimum of 10 bhp on the P6. That gives the clue that a lot of efficiency gains are there for the asking, and are so large as to be readily able to accomodate all discussion about port size and auto transmissions. Anyway, I had to have a new system to go around the ZF!

Chris
 
Well, the TC already has a decent manifold ex Rover! The pipe diameters could arguably be a little larger all the way down the system, but that is only going to get you another three to five over the standard system. So only worth considering if you are renewing the system anyway. The Rover manifold is noticeably fragile (!), so if you were having a new system it is well worth the extra to get a stainless manifold made up on reliability grounds. Then it makes excellent sense to go up a couple of sizes throughout.

On the SC the big problem is the inlet manifold, which is cast into the head, so no possibilities of improvement apart from fitting a TC head! I'm not sure whether the TC exhaust manifold would fit an SC head, but I wouldn't have thought you'd have gained a lot because of the inlet side of the equation.

Chris
 
Being as Bruiser has cracked another exhaust manifold, I am indeed considering a stainless item (though as Harvey knows the second mount on the gearbox is not there at the moment as the hole is stripped of it's thread).
So are you suggesting a complete custom made exhaust system to increase the bore size as I think that's really far more expense than I am prepared to go to at present. Or is there a way of adapting the V8 system to fit the 2000 with a suitable size manifold (I've not too much hope there)? Other than that a standard size one will be the order of the day I think. What sort of prices have people paid for custom manifolds? I would think half the price of a pair of 3500 items would cover it...hopefully. :wink:
 
The Rovering Member said:
Being as Bruiser has cracked another exhaust manifold, I am indeed considering a stainless item What sort of prices have people paid for custom manifolds? I would think half the price of a pair of 3500 items would cover it...hopefully. :wink:
A customer of mine was quoted £350 by P D Gough for a stainless one recently if my memory serves me well. He put it off for now :wink:
 
If you are going to buy a complete stainless system including manifold then the extra cost to go up a size is negligable.

Chris
 
The Rovering Member said:
Or is there a way of adapting the V8 system to fit the 2000 with a suitable size manifold (I've not too much hope there)? Other than that a standard size one will be the order of the day I think.

I can't see any reason why you couldn't use the large bore intermediate and rear boxes from a late V8 (or a 3500S) and then just have a custom large bore pipe to go between the manifold and the intermediate box. That way you could break up the job, and the cost. Get the manifold and fit it now. Obtain the large bore boxes, and then fit them when you make the large bore front pipe. Even with a standard manifold, large bore from there back should see an improvement.
 
chrisyork said:
If you are going to buy a complete stainless system including manifold then the extra cost to go up a size is negligable.

Chris
But I don't need a new system unless I increase the bore. And I'm not as keen on procuring a S/S system as others seem to be, being perfectly happy to limp along with mild steel for as long as I can get the parts from here & there. :wink:
£350 for a manifold also sounds like more than I'm willing to part with at the moment too, I'll have to make further enquiries though I couldn't get a ballpark figure from Flowtech over the phone so I'll have to take one up there to get a price. I may end up just continuing to use the standard ones for a bit. A friend has just welded another couple up for me though in the end he could only MIG them, having no access to gas at present so we'll see how they go.
I'll start looking for some 3500 silencers too as a matter of course & see about changing the back of the gearbox casing to get the rear mount back.
It only took Harvey half a minute to explain how to do it to me so it should be easy-peasy. :LOL:
 
I would like to reopen this old thread. I have found that my air filter (from a 1981 SD1) is fairly large, and much bigger than the original filter, as can be seen in the pictures. Also the filter box has a substantially larger air inlet, even though not as large as Chris' modified duct. Does anyone know if this filter is from a standard SD1 3500 ? (the black box and filter)Should be able to get new filters from sources like Rimmer bors then.

regards, Barten
 

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