P6 Values

SimonEccles

SimonEccles

New Member
I believe the P6 Rover is massively undervalued by the classic car market place at present. I mention this as I have just found a Marina for sale for £3k and a Triumph 1300 dolomite for £4.5k.

When it came out the 2000 was a wholly fresh design. The safest UK car at the time, and thought to handle the best. Then came the TC - extensively praised (over-the-top in some cases!) and then the 3500 to produce a massively quick and smooth car. They are easy to fix (believe me I should know) and completely capable in current everyday use. And they look bloody fantastic.

The difference in values between immaculate original cars and 'ordinary' or mildly altered cars is getting wider than ever for all types of classics, yet no so much for P6s. Compared to reasonable alternatives - DS in ID form or Jaguar XJ 2.8 S1 or the best Triumph has to offer - we should be looking at £10-12K for the best series 1 cars and 3500s, £8k for series 2 V8s and £5k for solid no-work needed series 1 or excellent 2000/2200 series 2 cars.

I wonder if we ourselves are responsible for keeping prices down. Following this logic really superb cars should be advertised at a min of £10k and lets get people used to seeing p6s with that sort of value attached.

What do you think?

Simon
 
hi simon,
i totally agree with you. i used to be on the p6 owners club committee, this was years before i bought ray weekleys business, so then it did not benefit me in the respect of obviously people will or don't mind spending money on there cars if the said car is worth more money. i regularly brought it up because we as a committee were the only people able to value cars, which the forms were then sent to the insurers to be accepted for what we as a committee put down the vehicles worth. then every year the classic car mags / price guides went on those valuations. i often said that if every year we were to increase the prices then the value would go up, which it would have done, but when it came to voting we were always just out voted. the main reason being and no names mentioned was if we increase the price it would also increase the value of the condition three cars which is obvious and it was said that it would make it harder for people with less money for one of these fine cars to get into p6 ownership. that is why p6 prices have hardly moved over the past ten years and that is a fact. now there are no valuers for the p6 owners club, i don't know if the drivers club do it. if so you need to speak to those on there comittee and see if they can do as i suggested on the owners club committee, this is one way you will get the value increased as they are truly under valued, you just have to look at p4 and p5's


joseph
 
Wow. I hadn't even thought of club, and therefore insurance, valuations.

I don't actually think that the value of the best going up will make a huge difference to condition 3 cars - as I posted, differentials are widening for all cars. Series 1 XJs and Daimler 250V8s both range from the £1k to £15k mark.

I believe that we now have the opposite problem, namely that it is not economic to do cars up, so perfectly reasonable cars are being allowed to deteriorate rather than have a couple of grand spend on making them really nice.

Unless it is a personal vanity project it simply isn't worth having a P6 professionally restored. It is not possible to recoup the money. Decent series one restoration of a condition 2 car to excellent = no change from £10k. Buy it for £1-2k. value when done £4-5k tops. So no-one does it.

But if the figures changed to Buy for £2k, spend £10k, worth £10k when done and you enjoy it for a couple of years - well more people would be tempted. As it is, we are losing restoration businesses and parts suppliers, work is being done by those of us on the Rover loony fringe (i.e. capable of talking about non-Rover topis but only briefly).

I'm rambling now so I'll go back to tuning the TC.

S
 
hi simon,
probably should have worded it slightly better. it was not me that said it would push the price of the condition 3 cars up, but the others that voted against us. it would though however push them up a little but not a lot, still making it able for people to enter p6 ownership.

you are right in the restoration specialists finishing. JP RESTORATIONS for one has near enough finished. firstly john packed in and emigrated to the states and now peter is winding the business down.

for any body that does not know i run rover classics which i bought from ray weekley. business has slowly declined in the 3 and a half years i have run it, i think partly due to ebay, which is much more easy and convenient ( sit down at night in the armchair and press a few buttons on the computer and wait for it to come ) and partly like you say people will not spend money on a car that when done has or will cost three or for more times what it is worth.


joseph
 
I am reading this thread with great interest - having made the decision to switch from a "modern" to a classic as my daily driver, which will be a P6. My calculations are repairs and maintenance won't be that much different to keeping a six year old saab in top condition (just get a quote from any Saab Franchsie for front discs and pads -you'll seen see what I mean!). Agreed petrol consumption will be up, but tax and insurance (even as a daily driver) are down. This not the first time I have done this, when I had a much shorter commute, I actually made money (a very small amount) after running a Herald 12/50 from 1999 to 2002 as my only car.

Cars that shine for shows always seem to get silly money, but good solid cars that are capable of daily use, but you are not frightened to take out of the garage seem to be very good value at the moment. Maybe we should preaching more about the econmics of daily classic motoring which lead to more business for the sppliers we value.If you keep your daily classic well maintained and even improve it your asset won't depreciate like a modern car and whatever the arguments about emissions, you would have to drive hundreds of thousands of miles to match the carbon footprint of producing a new car. The more the demand - the better prices will be achieved
 
hi neil,
your right about depreciation, look after it and it won't depreciate. i have been running two cars one 5 years old and the other bought as an ex demonstrator at three months old seven seater chevrolet captiva new £31,000 i bought it for £21,500 it is now nearly 12 months old and worth £15,500 if i didn't have as many kids ( my fault i know ) i would have been better off buying two p6's and running them everyday, i would still be well in pocket.

joseph
 
josephp6man said:
hi simon,
it would though however push them up a little but not a lot, still making it able for people to enter p6 ownership.
I think partly due to ebay, which is much more easy and convenient ( sit down at night in the armchair and press a few buttons on the computer and wait for it to come ) and partly like you say people will not spend money on a car that when done has or will cost three or for more times what it is worth.
joseph
Click to expand...

Its never really been economical to pay a specialist to restore a car "with odd exceptions" so that you can sell for a profit after 2 yrs or so use!
For those fortunate to have deep pockets and just want to enjoy the cars then thers no problem,spend what they like,,,but for enthusiasts who dont mind getting stuck in,there is still a profit to be made if thats your motivation!!!
Its not all about making profit at the end of the day,its about enjoying classic cars,its still cheap motoring!!
Appreciation rather than depreciation ££'s wise!! :wink:
I bought a one owner low miles Dolly sprint for £250 that needed patch welding,I used it for 11 yrs as a daily car,repainted it,replaced the axle/box/eng swap,etc,and sold it 10 yrs ago for £1000,now thats economical motoring!
Its probably worth £3k now!! but ive moved on to Rover P6's and Triumph TR's,fortunately they are both worth about double what they have cost me so far if I were to sell!

Neil.
Go for it!!
I have run a varied selection of classics as my daily drivers,,1977-1984 loads of 60's early 70's stuff like Austin 1100/1300s,Morris 1000,Marinas,Mini,Fords,Jags,even had a 1970 Rolls for 3 wks.
Then a 1973 S1 Daimler Sov 4.2l from 1984-1989,then a dolly sprint,1989-2000, All mostly sold on for a small profit after good use!!
And my current daily car since 2000, is a 1971 Rover P6V8 and still going strong.
Luckily I am not married and dont have kids!
 
I agree with Simon!

We definitely need values to rise! There are those of us, self included, who don't intend ever to sell their P6's, but for 85% of the ownership the price they get back when they sell is a significant factor in determining what they are prepared to spend on the car. It's noticeable that cars go for substantially more money on the continent and in Australia and New Zealand.

So that's agreed then - an appeal to Mr Dunning and the other RP6C valuers to get on with gently massaging the prices up!

My personal view is that value needs to get comfortably ahead of the cost of the standard P6 rust job - ie replace sills and D posts both sides. I reckon that means a really clean V8 needs to hit around £10 - 12k with a really nice TC at around £6 - 7k. That way you guarantee that cars will get fixed rather than broken for spares. Any other opinions on that?

Chris
 
Whilst I agree that prices ought to go up,therfore unfortunately so will the cost of repairs!
You only have to mention JAG! and the price can double for a similar job on a P6!
Sadly though,as car prices rise there will be the few conmen that will want to make a fast lethal buck out of unsuspecting enthusiasts and sell them dangerously repaired cars!!
Its the overheads that determine the hourly rate,and rent,elec.gas,cosumables,wages demands, basic overinflation all round that factor in!
As for down under prices.cars of certain types are rare and therefore create a demand,hence a apparent higher price!
Dont forget that all prices vary for anything all over the world!!
I couldnt afford to smoke in NZ,but I could get totally legless for lots less than the UK! :LOL:
 
josephp6man said:
hi simon,
i totally agree with you. i used to be on the p6 owners club committee, this was years before i bought ray weekleys business, so then it did not benefit me in the respect of obviously people will or don't mind spending money on there cars if the said car is worth more money. i regularly brought it up because we as a committee were the only people able to value cars, which the forms were then sent to the insurers to be accepted for what we as a committee put down the vehicles worth. then every year the classic car mags / price guides went on those valuations. i often said that if every year we were to increase the prices then the value would go up, which it would have done, but when it came to voting we were always just out voted. the main reason being and no names mentioned was if we increase the price it would also increase the value of the condition three cars which is obvious and it was said that it would make it harder for people with less money for one of these fine cars to get into p6 ownership. that is why p6 prices have hardly moved over the past ten years and that is a fact. now there are no valuers for the p6 owners club, i don't know if the drivers club do it. if so you need to speak to those on there comittee and see if they can do as i suggested on the owners club committee, this is one way you will get the value increased as they are truly under valued, you just have to look at p4 and p5's


joseph
Click to expand...

From my perspective P6 values have rising reasonably in the last 10 years. Certainly you cannot now buy a decent car for under circa £1200 - my first P6 in 1998 was a 2000 auto with 47k on the clock and pretty smart that I paid £825 for. I was to sell this car now I'd be looking at around the £1500 marker - which is very much what I sold a similar car to my original one for at the end of last year.

Practical Classics valuations now list a condition one 3500S at just over £5k, which is a rise of about a grand in recent years.

Regarding valuations: The Rover P6 Club have done a lot of valuations this year, personally I've done about 12. We have a small team, but we are reasonably distributed around the country:

Mark Gray (Wolverhampton)
Rob Pinner (Birmingham)
John Windwood (Walsall)
Steve Benyon (Manchester)
Clive Annable (Derby)
Barry Gill (Durham)
and myself (Godalming, Surrey).

We are constantly checking our valuations to make sure they are reasonable and realistic. Mark Gray holds a central record of all valuation we do, which we do evaluate for consistency constantly.

At this year's National Rally at Rudgely, Staffordshire http://www.p6club.com/node/270 we will be doing a valuations clinic, with all the team participating. Should be a lot of fun and give us all the opportunity to make sure we are getting things right.

I suspect later car values (particularily 4-cylinders) will move if the rumoured rejig of Historic Vehicle Tax happens.

V8 values for later cars are strong, as the later cars have the better autobox and all the toys. I see the extremely beautiful 1975 3500 auto recently on eBay has now sold (it was advertised at £6500) and I've had no problem selling our excellent 1975 3500S for a fair price recently.

Early cars though are getting rarer and rarer, but values have remained roughly the same. If my condition one plus 21k mile 1964 car went on the market I suspect I'd be hard pushed to get past the £5k barrier, a pittance compared with say an MGB of the same age and condition, let alone a Ford!

Cheers
Nick
 
Your last paragraph speaks volumes Nick, I think it's all about perception... I also think we live in a bit of a 'P6 bubble' in a way, in that we'd expect a top spec 3500 S to cost us no more than £5k.... looking outside of that 'bubble' what would the same £5k get you? An early MGB with a bit of MoT but needing new sills maybe, or basket case but genuine Mk1 / Mk2 Mini Cooper needing £10k plus spending on it.

I recently paid a touch under £4k for my '72 3500 Auto, one or two on here might flinch at that and expect to pay a lot less but I'm happy with the car, it's no minter but everything works, I can get in and drive it knowing when I get out of it I'll have a smile on my face and so far it's proved to be the best Rover I've owned so far. I can honestly say I've got a lot of car for the money and today it more than proved it's worth completing a 200 mile round trip, keeping well up with the traffic and behaving itself all day.

Nidge :wink:
 
Indeed - that's my point. I'd be seriously happy to pay £10k for a spot-on original V8 or £7K for 2000TC in the same condition. Not because I'm an overpaid naive idiot (at least I hope not) but because I know how much it costs how much it would cost to get a car into this nick and how few there are already there.

I am constantly tempted to buy good cars offered at too little money but I don't have more Rovers because if I have more than two I don't drive them enough to keep them running well. (I've just spent a happy afternoon tuning both of mine and they're purring like kittens. My wife and I had a celebratory drive through central London!)

Simon
 
I've been repairing Rovers for many years now and have found as they've evolved from daily higher end drives into enthusiasts cars, I still re sill/weld maintain and repaint them but not as often. Some do their own work now and I generally don't work for folk who are worried about the negative equity.

Enthusiasts should do it as a passtime, I've not had a profitable hobby ever :?
I think the prices are steadily creeping up on various marques in or near the decades the P6s production spanned.
I'd be happy if the values shot up and encouraged more restoration work on them for me with looser budgets, but not if it resulted in working for people who were only looking for a return on their investment. Wouldn't this make them more popular with traders using them just to make money?

Prices would have to inflate hugely to cover the cost of profesional work to leave a profit IMO
 
So Ian's Talago has gone for the best part of £20,000 (inc premium).

Whilst I don't think P6s are cars to make a profit on (sadly unless you break them); this should encourage more to restore good cars to a very high standard.

Wonderful news.
 
How can it encourage people to restore them .... that bloke alledges that he spent £65K and sold it for £18.5 under the hammer ... plus the years he spent doing it!! Utter madness from a business point of view ... utter madness.


I think P6's dont make the money due to the fact supply is still quite high and demand low. We all like them, but plenty more dont. I am not put off by the price of pertol for the V8, it drives the nuts, nails most modern hot hatches and is comfortable and easy to drive.

I think the car needs something to lift its vlaue. Jags have a name, Minis are ever popular, but Rover has a certain twee, stuffy image ... we need more Vinny Jones bashing people up in them, more Sweeney Police chases or any members attractive wives to go naked in them ... get posting boys!
 
Do you ever recover the cost of a restoration? Friend of mine has an Aston Martin DB2/4 (?) in his garage .Been there for years .Needs bodywork , interior , engine etc plus bound to need brakes/tyres exhaust .He dreams of getting it just running .I think the costs would be prohibitive
 
Rarely if ever will you make a profit on any resto done by a business. It's just the nature of it. I suppose the point is how much do you want that car and how much are you willing to pay to go that extra mile, attention to detail makes a car but also costs £££'s.
Even in the pre war Rolls Royce and Bentley markets profits aren't huge if any, only very significant cars fetch high prices ( No. 1701 London to Edinburgh car for example). These sort of cars are not in ownership by UK owners, generally they are owned by overseas collectors or traders and brought here to restore and shipped away again back to their respective countries, favourable business conditions including exchange rates and tax breaks made this a regular occurrence until fairly recently but just before the banks worked out you shouldn't lend money to people who can't repay these owners got wind of things to come and a lot of them slung their collective hooks.
I think it's good that some P6's are available for low prices, there will come a time when they all become worth a higher value but it would appear that the P6 is in an extended "grey period", meaning that it's inbetween being a slightly upmarket used car and not quite in the "no matter what condition" classic bracket. Let's hope that with low or fair prices we can tempt in newer owners that will learn about these cars and keep them going for another 20+ years.
 
I also ride classic motorcycles. The discussion in our club (The Ariel Owners Club) generally centres around the fact the rapidly inflating prices are taking the bikes out of reach of people who are be genuinely interested in riding the bikes. It has increasingly become apparent that the bikes are being bought by people as "an investment" they rarely ride them, and don't attend any of the rallies or runs that are organised by the club.

Be careful what you wish for!
 
Fair comments all - esp the 'careful what you wish for'
I just get upset to see good cars needing about £3k spent on base unit and overhaul being stripped for spares as they are uneconomic to repair. I have also driven (though never bought) my fair share of horribly tarted 1960s Jaguars left over from the 1980s boom.

I still say my mint 2000 is worth more than it's £3500 book value though :)

Simon
 
I agree 100% about being annoyed to see cars being stripped whose repair is physically practicable. I think the problem is that they tend to be owned by people who couldn't afford to have the work done for them and / or couldn't be bothered / able to do it themselves. This is a characteristic of low value cars.

I do accept BBLongman's point about people hoarding for investment if the price goes up enough. However I still think the value needs to go up enough to make people feel (sort of) justified in doing that big repair that would otherwise kill the car. I reckon that would have to be about £4,000 for a presentable MoT able car. I guess that implies around £12k ish for a minter? Surely that ought not to attract too many hoarders?

Chris
 
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