PAS Pump end float

SydneyRoverP6B said:
I am hoping I may be closer this time?

Ron.

Nope!

All I will say is what I've said before, and that is that it's constructed in this way for a reason, and if you have a look in the book, and think about the cars that the pump was fitted to at the time, all the info is there for you to come to a conclusion, and that conclusion is the reason why it was done. Don't overthink the problem, because the answer is really so simple.
And for that reason if I say anymore then it will just give away the answer. TBH what I've said already should be enough to give the answer without the need to look in the book, looking in the book will just confirm the answer.

If nobody gets it today then I will give a small clue, but that clue should give you the answer, so it defeats the object of the excercise really.
 
Hello Harvey,

Hmmm, I am obviously reading too much into it then. I like careful logical thought and deduction, so guessing and hoping for the best is not something that I am going to do.

If looking in the book will only confirm the thought, then how it works is not the key. If that is the case then what I am now thinking is that pump when it was manufactured had a degree of flexibility built into it so as to accomodate the necessary hardware that it may encounter on both Rovers and any other car that the pump may have been fitted to.

Please don't give away any clues. The answer is there, so it will be found.

Ron.
 
SydneyRoverP6B said:
then how it works is not the key. Ron.

Well it is, sort of, but as I said before, the book will tell you how it works, but won't actually tell you why it's made the way it is, but what you need to know is in there, and proof of it can be found elsewhere.
 
Hmmm, so how it works cannot be excluded...

Well I knew nothing about pumps and their operation when I started, so all I can say is that I shall know a little more by the time I am finished.!

I shall keep thinking.

Ron.
 
Over 20 years ago I purchased a brand new power steering pump, so now with this discussion occuring the time has arrived to bring it out from its resting place and have a good look at it. The first thing that you notice is just how heavy it is, given its size. The housing is composed of three parts, with no pulley or brackets attached.

A pump which features a bearing only at one end of the shaft is known to have a cantilever shaft. This design is to aid assembly and after servicing, reassembly. As I detailed above, the vane carrier is not pressed onto the shaft, but is located by a pin. This allows the shaft to be withdrawn from the carrier with ease once the pump body is separated. Correct location of the carrier following reassembly is also assured. This explains most of the thinking behind why the carrier is not pressed onto the shaft, but it does not explain shaft end float.

I earlier thought that the bearing would demonstrate axial movement within the housing, and this would thus explain the end float. By inspecting my new pump, I can now see that this theory is flawed. The bearing which is of a sealed design, is pressed onto the shaft being preceeded by an oil seal, both to the limit of their travel. This assembly is then placed into the pump body, the outer circumference of the bearing being pressed into the pump housing until fully seated.

By inspection, the shaft of my new power steering pump displayed no end float at all. It turned smoothly and with purpose, but there was no end float, not even a hint. Therefore the end float is not designed into the pump, rather it is a consequence of something else. Given that the bearing is pressed fully home onto the shaft, end float cannot occur unless the bearing's outer circumference is allowed to move with respect to the pump housing in which it resides. Considerable wear within the bearing surfaces could also see shaft end float being exhibited.

So, given that the new pump that I possess exhibits no axial movement of the shaft (end float), does that mean that pumps with end float do so through wear or from manufacturing tolerances and if so where is the movement located? The way that I see it, the shaft cannot move unless there is axial movement at one point or another with the bearing. I don't see the bearing moving with respect to the housing, but wear once it occurs within the bearing will certainly allow a degree of movement to exist. Given that the design of the bearing precludes any adjustment, I am inclined to suggest that the axial movement is located within the bearing, either possibly at the time of manufacture, or more likely through wear. To add weight to this argument, the sealed bearings within certain types of bicycle headsets feature a tapered split sleeve which is tightened against to remove play within the bearing as it occurs. Here there is no such adjustment allowed.

I will also note that the pulley locates on the shaft via a key, and is thus secured into the shaft by a bolt. The pulley is assumed not to be moving independent of the shaft.

Therefore the axial movement (end float) within the shaft is directly attributable to the bearing, its design, manufacturing tolerance and or wear. In addition, the means of retention of the vane carrier on the shaft means that shaft axial movement and the efficient operation of the vane carrier and as such the pump are entirely independent.

Ron.
 
Does it have anything to do with the pump being designed to rotate in both directions? I presume that the only difference between a P5B (or Rangey) pump and a P6B pump is that the vane is flipped over, thus allowing it to operate clockwise. There can't be too many pumps that will run backwards!
 
KiwiRover said:
Does it have anything to do with the pump being designed to rotate in both directions? I presume that the only difference between a P5B (or Rangey) pump and a P6B pump is that the vane is flipped over, thus allowing it to operate clockwise. There can't be too many pumps that will run backwards!

I knew someone would get there in the end! Told you it was simple didn't I. It is so that by assembling the vane and rollers either way around that the pump can be assembled to enable either clockwise (P5B) or anti-clockwise (P6B) operation using all of the same parts, just assembled in a different manner. If the vane was fixed to the shaft you'd need LH and RH vanes.

Well done to all those who took the time to participate in such a piece of mindless trivia, and particularly to Ron who put in so much effort, and KiwiRover who's obviously keen to move up the "Anorak" list.
 
Yay me! :D So it stands to reason that when I get around to fitting power steering to one of my TCs, I could use a V8 pump with a flipped vane and mount it the other way 'round, possibly in a similar manner to the AC compressor with a separate tensioner pulley. That just leaves the question of where to stick the reservoir.
 
Hello Richard (Quattro)
First, sorry to be a pain but can you help/advise. I hope you will remember me, I'm the chap with the P6 V8 in Tobacco leaf (traveling towards Sheffield) when you had your shop in Ecclesfield, we also had a chat at the Graves Park Rally last year. Let me put you in the picture, I had my Rover restored at "Viking Restorations" in Morley near Leeds 8 years ago and ever since then I have gone there to have any repairs carried out and prepare for the MOT which is due this month, (Richard Stockwell, he's just a one man band, now 65 although he says he's not going to retire but intends to keep his hand in, of course he is very knowledgeable on the P6, at the moment he is on holiday for an undetermined length of time) which leaves in the position of having to find an alternative to have the car's MOT done etc.
So, my question is, do you know anyone who knows the P6 and understands them (or sympathetic towards them) especially for the MOT and can carry out any repairs, i.e. where do you take yours for the MOT etc. Sorry to use this forum for this purpose but I don't know any other way of getting in touch with you.
Best Regards Dave Raybould (Member No 1051)
I have attached a photo of my car (I hope, I'm not a computer wizard) so you know what we are talking about.
 

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Hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

Where abouts are you based ? If you have been going to Richard's place I assume you're somewhere in the yorkshire area ?

I would recommend talking to Dan at Priory Vehicle Engineers (01977 618411), based near Wakefield. I help out there occasionally when the wife lets me out to play !
Dan has loads of experience with P6's, and looks after quite a few members cars, there's a couple in there undergoing restoration at the moment.
 
^^^ what he said.

This is the place I emailed you about Dave, just couldn't remember the name 8)
 
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