Rover P6B Swivel Pillar ball Joints

[Mike Allfrey]

I am in the process of installing a second-hand swivel pillar (king pin and stub axle assembly). I am trying to do the right procedure by installing new ball joints, top and bottom.

Reading the Repair Operations Manual, the upper joint is simply "drifted downwards' after removing the three 0.25" UNF setscrews, but leaving the large taper shank securing nut tight. This tells me that the fit is not all that tight. However, a fair session with a lump hammer has failed to remove the ball joint assembly.

The bottom ball joint is also extremely stubborn too. The book shows a puller, which I do not have, but could get made if necessary.

My questions are for those who have been there before. My understanding is that the ball joint housing is not hardened steel, steering and suspension loads are taken by plastic cups and a brass threaded cup that stops it all falling apart. My thoughts are that the inner face of the housing can be milled away so that the swivel pillar housing's parent metal can be revealed and a puller can push against the parent metal of the housing, while the ball joint housing has a bearing puller flange clamped firmly in the groove for the rubber boot. The question is this -- Are the bores for the ball joints completely blind? Or, did Rover, in the interests of reducing unsprung weight, employ hollow ends at the swivel pillar?

I have read a thread on a similar topic, but the concern there was looseness of the ball joint assembly in the swivel pillar housing. That, frankly is alarming, as is the comment about the spiral spring clip not being able to hold a loose lower ball joint assembly. I also wonder about the effectiveness of the three quarter-inch setscrews holding a loose upper ball joint.

The pair of new ball joints that I have purchased, appear to feature bonded rubber boots, there is no facility for the securing spring ring, as there was for the old boots.

Any suggestions will be appreciated. Also suggestions of a machine shop in Melbourne's eastern suburbs that could handle my job will also be appreciated.

Thanks folks,

Mike A.

 

[SydneyRoverP6B]

Hello Mike,

The top ball joint is a firm fit within the swivel pillar, so with the three retaining bolts removed, use a suitable drift and a hammer and work from underneath the flange, moving around the joint as you go. You do have to hit fairly hard else it won't move.

I have not removed a bottom ball joint without the proper tool. They are (or certainly should be) a very tight fit indeed, more so than the top ball joint.

The swivel pillar is hollow and both bores that accept the ball joints have a hole at their base, to allow air and any grease you use to be pushed out of the way else great difficulty would be encountered in fitting them.

Ron.

 

[harveyp6]

Split the tapers and remove the pillar with both joints fitted. Then, as said earler, remove the 3 bolts holding the top joint and use a drift around the flange to knock the joint out. When refitting loosly fit three bolts before tapping the new joint in so that you get the holes aligned for the retaining bolts.

Bottom ones are more problematic, even with the puller, they often pull the pin out of the joint leaving the socket in there. I've got the remover so I can't really offer any advice about how to remove them without it. On refitting they should be very tight in the pillar, so don't be tempted to grind bits off to make fitting easier. We've seen the results of doing that on here before. The spring clip is only there to tell you the joint has gone in far enough, not as a retainer.

You shouldn't be putting any grease or oil on the splines or under the joint.

 

[Dave3066]

On refitting they should be very tight in the pillar, so don't be tempted to grind bits off to make fitting easier.

As an indication of how tight they should be and how hard you have to hit them to get them in I managed to split the outer rim of one trying to fit it recently,

just as well I had another. I made my own puller based on the proper tool and it does help to remove the spring clip before attempting to pull the joint out :roll:

Dave

 

[harveyp6]

On refitting they should be very tight in the pillar, so don't be tempted to grind bits off to make fitting easier.

As an indication of how tight they should be and how hard you have to hit them to get them in I managed to split the outer rim of one trying to fit it recently,

You shouldn't knock them in with that outer rim part, it will always break away like yours did (if it doesn't the joint is too loose in the pillar), you need a very thickwalled tube that goes over the pin, and sits on the top of the joint itself.

 

[quattro]

Last time I did one of these, apart from losing my sense of humour :twisted:, I devised an easy way of getting the new one in.

Put the new joint in the freezer overnight and put the leg into the oven at 100c for a short while.

When ready to refit, the new joint will tap in a lot easier and doesn't need to be 'hammered.'

Just make sure that you tap it in all the way before the temperatures adjust. i.e. don't wander off and answer the phone with the joint half way in.

Worked a treat for me

Richard

I used to do this with bushes as well

 

[harveyp6]

Just make sure that you tap it in all the way before the temperatures adjust. i.e. don't wander off and answer the phone with the joint half way in.

And don't heat the pillar too much...

 

[quattro]

Just make sure that you tap it in all the way before the temperatures adjust. i.e. don't wander off and answer the phone with the joint half way in.

And don't heat the pillar too much...

In the oven on low, or in a bucket of boiling water is all that is needed. I never heat suspension parts excessively :?

An MOT station/garage, who I asked to change the track rod end on my Audi got the upright glowing with an oxyacetylene torch :shock:

I did ask if that was a good idea on an aluminium part, but he seemed to think it was ok.

I'm not going there any more

Richard

 

[Dave3066]

Just make sure that you tap it in all the way before the temperatures adjust. i.e. don't wander off and answer the phone with the joint half way in.

Good approach, just make sure you wear gloves when handling the pillar.

You shouldn't knock them in with that outer rim part, it will always break away like yours did (if it doesn't the joint is too loose in the pillar), you need a very thickwalled tube that goes over the pin, and sits on the top of the joint itself.

Yes I was using a steel tube that only fitted over the outer rim . For the second attempt I used a big impact socket that sat on the inner shoulder of the joint itself.

Dave

 

[harveyp6]

Just make sure that you tap it in all the way before the temperatures adjust. i.e. don't wander off and answer the phone with the joint half way in.

And don't heat the pillar too much...

In the oven on low, or in a bucket of boiling water is all that is needed. I never heat suspension parts excessively :?

I never thought you would. I was just catering for the LCD.

 

[harveyp6]

You shouldn't knock them in with that outer rim part, it will always break away like yours did (if it doesn't the joint is too loose in the pillar), you need a very thickwalled tube that goes over the pin, and sits on the top of the joint itself.

Yes I was using a steel tube that only fitted over the outer rim . For the second attempt I used a big impact socket that sat on the inner shoulder of the joint itself.

Dave

That's on my list of tools to make (again!). I did so many bottom joints I wore my installer out....

 

[Mike Allfrey]

Dear Ron, HarveyP6, Quattro and Dave,

Grateful thanks for all of your comments. I will tread with cautious care now!

This morning I will be taking the parts to a local machine shop. There a lower ball joint puller, as shown in the Repair Operations Manual, will be made-up for me. Once I have finished with it, it will be donated to the RCCA for their tool store. I am also getting two hollow drifts machined so that installation should be properly achieved.

As for the upper ball joint housing, well, we shall see!

It is my understanding that the 'splines' on the ball joint housings are designed to 'crush' a certain amount to ensure a tight fit at each installation. I have not read about any mention of female splines inside the swivel pillar bores.

On assembly, I am tempted to use a smear of Loctite Anti-seize compound for its anti-galling properties. Any comment on that?

Also, having read that the spiral spring clip falls out if the lower ball joint is loose in its bore - how common is this occurrence?

Thank you all,

Mike A.

 

[Mike Allfrey]

G'dday Folks,

Here is an update on progress, and lack of it, today.

I went to five engineer's workshops today and four of them have closed down. This is sad, because one of them had done really good work for me when restoring my Jowett Jupiter in the late 1990s. The fifth was there, but was really rude and told me not to waste his time and to get off the premises, pronto! He didn't give me a chance to explain what I wanted done. He'll keep.

Once back home again, I set the swivel pillar up on the table of my pillar drill, so that I could try and drill a hole in the face at the end of the ball joint housing. It proved to be easy to drill and gave me great encouragement. I then mounted the swivel pillar in my bench vice and laid into the exposed bit of top flange that was protruding at three points around the diameter, with lump hammer and a heavy brass drift. After two laps of this treatment, the pivot housing started to move. Once there was a 1 mm gap all round, the task became somewhat easier, but it hung on to the finish!

Noted is the large hole to allow air to gasp!

Getting that pivot housing out has given me great satisfaction and makes up for the morning's dejection.

I think that if I can get the special lower ball joint extraction made properly, the rest will be easy -- or maybe, a bit easier!

Thanks for your suggestions, they have been a great help.

Warm regards,

Mike A.

 

[tvr_v8]

Hey Mike,

I had rather a lot of fun with my ball joints not so long ago too, the RCCA have got the lower ball joint puller available in their collection (I used theirs on mine to great effect) so i would suggest borrowing that would save you having another one made up.

With regards having them pressed back in be -VERY- careful that no corners at all are cut, I had one pop out on me at 80kph on the Nepean Highway in morning traffic after I had a national suspension chain press them in and they butchered them in the process thinking that the clip was going to hold them, so took an angle grinder to the splines to get them to fit.

To have it done properly the second time round I took them to "The Healey Factory" in Ringwood, and can highly recommend them to do the job.

Give me a shout if you need any assistance.

Cheers,

Al

 

[redrover]

Yeah... I did one pillar last year.
As they say in Lancashire, it was a "penn-int-tharse!"

 

[Mike Allfrey]

Hi Al,

Thanks for that, the bit about the Healey Factory sounds good.

We had a good look in the tool store during the last RCCA meeting, but the tool custodian was not yet back from National Rove.

I don't mind making another extractor, in fact it is a bit of a challenge!

Time is on my side.

Regards,

Mike A.

 

[Mike Allfrey]

Thank you All for your advice and input. It is certainly appreciated.

Here is an update on my saga. I tried the RCCA bottom ball joint puller and felt that I was straining it too much. A heavier duty puller is being made up, employing 5/8" UNF jacking screws through steel 28 mm thick. If this does not work, othermeans (brutal) will be investigated.

Or, I will grease the original joint which feels firm and fit a new rubber boot.

I note comment that the new ball joint should be pressed in with an adaptor in contact with the main body of the joint housing, not the flange. With my new joint, this will not be possible because the rubber boot is bonded to the housing. The flange will have to bear the load.

I do have another question though. Has anyone tried pressing the joint into the swivel pillar housing using a light smear of Loctite Antisieze (anti-galling) paste inside the housing bore? Over the years, I have used the Loctite product with great success.

Kind regards,

Mike A.

 

[Rubythursday]

All I have ever suceeded to do with the proper puller is to pull the ball pin out of the joint. Having said that I then run a bead of weld around the inside of tthe socket and then the body falls out.

 

[Dave3066]

Here is an update on my saga. I tried the RCCA bottom ball joint puller and felt that I was straining it too much. A heavier duty puller is being made up, employing 5/8" UNF jacking screws through steel 28 mm thick. If this does not work, othermeans (brutal) will be investigated.

Or, I will grease the original joint which feels firm and fit a new rubber boot.

Mike

Was the joint firm before you started trying to pull it? If not then the latter is not a very good idea IMHO because you've already started the processes of pulling the joint out. The stiffness now will likely be due to the ball of the pin starting to pull out from the socket of the joint. If you reassemble it now the pin will reseat loosely in the socket as the suspension functions, and fail altogether.

Give it a good soak with penetrating fluid over a couple of days before trying the puller again. Hopefully you've remembered to remove the spring clip too :wink:

Dave

 

[Mike Allfrey]

A further update!

Dave, I think you were correct about the ball being snug after pulling on it. Thanks for that one.

The new tool has been fabricated and the two Grade-8, 5/8" UNF jacking bolts screw into 28 mm thick blocks. This provides a large area of threads to work with.

The whole thing was that powerful that the ball and shank pulled right out of the socket. A great amount of force had been exerted before the ball/shank came free. That tells me that the socket housing is an extremely tight fit in the swivel pillar. It took quite lot of work with my long Britool swivel handle before the ball/shank started to moove.

I suppose now is the time to run a healthy bead of weld around the inside diameter of the socket housing. I think I will have to weld a 5/8" grade 5 bolt into the socket so that I can use my puller in a further attempt to get the ball joint socket out of the swivel pillar housing. Meanwhile the assembly is soaking in Penetrene (rusted parts loosening fluid), until the middle of next week, when I can get back to it.

If that doesn't work, I will have to purchase a new swivel pillar. I was hoping that I would not have to do that, someone in more need than I, may need that pillar!

This whole episode has proved a much more difficult task than I expected. Sadly, it is difficult repairs like these that do a lot to encourage scrapping an otherwise sound car. The Rover Repair Operation Manual is just as much a master of understatement as the Ford Tractor Repair Manuals were. In reality, where such manuals call for the use of a puller, we can bet that much more drastic methods will be required to "Extract the lower ball joint using 600692."

'Nuff said!

Regards,

Mike A.