"Scrap" Car Scrapping Subsidy Proposal

chrisyork

Active Member
Has anyone spotted in the news recently there is a push from the motor trade for the government to introduce a subsidy scheme to boost the sales of new cars. There is apparently a scheme like this operating in Germany at the moment. The idea is that if you trade in a car more than 9 years old for your new eurobox the government will guarantee you a part exchange value of (I think) EUR 2,500 in exchange for scrapping your old banger.

The theory behind this is that it is a green measure as well as boosting car sales. Industry hype is that new cars are much better for the environment - lower CO2 emissions, recyclable etc etc. Therefore there is an overall benefit to planet earth.

There are a few problems with this.

First, the basic green premise is plain wrong. If you look at whole life CO2 emissions (ie cradle to grave) there is a huge percentage made up of the emissions generated by making all that steel and plastic, paint, assembly etc in the first place(anyone know precisely how big - my recollection is it is 30 - 40%?). Therfore you will actually drive up CO2 emissions because of the reduced overall age of the car population - ie you've had to make more cars (with the associated upfront CO2 cost) to achieve the same number on the road.

Second, 9 year old cars tend to do very low mileages cos they've reached the sort of owners who only have a car to pop the kids to the doctors etc, whereas new cars have a much higher chance of being high mileage motorway hackers. So there is much lower total emissions from an old car even if the per mile rate is poor. Hence poor overall benefit to the environment.

This is a directly anti poor people measure. If you drive up the floor price of old cars, you are bound to make it impossible for numbers of low income groups to own a car at all.

Finally, and most relevantly to us, it will decimate the number of classic cars. Who amongst us with an old P6 sat on the drive in poor nick could resist the idea of selling it to a yuppy for three times plus its true value for him to trade in for his next new motor? And don't think a lack of MoT will inhibit things! If it was a deal maker, how many garages could resist slapping a bent MoT on an old wreck, certain in the knowledge it was a one trip to the crusher?

Anybody any idea what we ought to do about this. Anybody know how to get a Downing Street web site petition going? Got an email address to lobby Meddlesome (I mean Mandlesohn of course)? Any idea how to get representation from the classic car clubs off the mark?

Chris
 
chrisyork said:
Has anyone spotted in the news recently there is a push from the motor trade for the government to introduce a subsidy scheme to boost the sales of new cars. There is apparently a scheme like this operating in Germany at the moment. The idea is that if you trade in a car more than 9 years old for your new eurobox the government will guarantee you a part exchange value of (I think) EUR 2,500 in exchange for scrapping your old banger.
...
Chris

This is exactly what the local motor trade pushes our government to do over here. Using the same ridiculus reasoning. And also because they just stopped earning what they used to (read: millions) during the last decade. And i don't think that they shared with us any of their new and used car profits, did they?
Anyway, thankfully nothing happened up to now, but the only reason behind this, is that the economy is too tight now to finance such subsidiaries.
However, what seems inevitable is that probably next year, those of us running classics, we will have to pay multiple road tax if we want to keep them on the road.
At the moment i am paying EUR 450 for the P6 and EUR 160 for the 1100 per year as road tax. Which is A LOT for my money! The classification is purely by engine displacement no matter how new or old, cheap or expensive, high or low annual mileage. The same is for insurance, i have to pay about EUR 700 per year for both cars, just for the basic coverage after more than 10 years without any claims.

All i have to say is, lucky you with the tax free scheme and classic insurance policies.
 
As I said about the 50 mph speed limit - The Government knows best and will educate us into what we want !!!

Hopefully the present bunch of idiots will be out soon as soon as they have fixed themselves up with good pay-offs , pensions and new jobs. All 3 , not just one
 
Having now found the Downing Street web site there is already a petition on there which goes some way to addressing this issue. The response from Government is quite sensible reading, albeit now out of date:

23 April 2008

We received a petition asking:

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Reject any proposals to ban or restrict the use of older cars."

Details of Petition:

"Several EU proposals across the years are dangerous to the classic car movement. One that has been under consideration is to ban the use of cars older than 10 years. Similarly, Edinburgh City Council is considering the banning of cars over 15 years old from the town centre. These, and similar, proposals directly threaten the classic car movement, and encourage the manufacture of new cars, with the attendent environmental issues of sourcing raw materials, manufacturing, distriuting and scrapping the spiralling supply of new vehicles."

Read the Government’s response


Thank you for taking the time to register your views about classic cars on the Downing Street website.

There is currently no proposal either at EU or domestic level to ban cars over a certain age.

Clearly, vehicle emissions are a concern not just from a local air quality perspective but, increasingly, due to their contribution to climate change. Therefore, the European Commission has proposed setting CO2 targets for car manufacturers, but these would only affect new cars. Also, the targets would be based on averages rather than enforced limits or bans.

There is also no EU or UK policy to provide incentives for scrapping old vehicles. A programme of incentives to phase out the most polluting vehicles was considered as part of the national Air Quality Strategy Review (June 2007). Two scenarios were modelled: the first considered incentives for the scrapping of all cars that were not compliant with the Euro 1 standard, while the second considered Euro 1 standard cars as well as all the pre-Euro cars. This analysis suggested that both scenarios would result in a large net cost to society and represented poor value for money, mainly due to the high cost of useful resources being destroyed (i.e. roadworthy cars being scrapped). This could also involve negative environmental effects, as the petition outlines. As a result, the Air Quality Strategy classified this measure as ‘no longer under immediate consideration’, which remains true today.

Local authorities are able to develop, implement and manage their own local air quality management schemes, allowing them to focus measures on priorities in their area. The Low Emission Zone (LEZ) operating in London is a prominent example. It currently applies to lorries over 12 tonnes, but will eventually apply to lighter vehicles such as large vans. However, cars, motorcycles and small vans (below 1.205 tonnes in unladen weight) are not affected. For the vehicles that are included, there is an exemption for ‘historic vehicles’ built before 1st January 1973.
 
I've been trying to research actual facts on this topic! They are remarkably thin on the ground. The only technical paper I've managed to track down is this one from VW Audi:

http://www.volkswagenag.com/vwag/vw...aryStorageItem.Single.File/golfa4_english.pdf

To save you wading through the techno speak the key summary is at page 27, which tells us that the CO2 production from manufacture is 22% of the total life cycle emissions of CO2.

The most succinct article on the subject I've found is this one from George Mobiot in The Guardian of 10th March:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/10/car-scrappage-payments

His key paragraph is:

"A paper published in 2000 by the journal Transportation Research comes to even grimmer conclusions: that replacing old cars with new ones increases carbon pollution. Because between 15% and 20% of a car's emissions are produced during its manufacture, the optimal age for a car, the paper says, is 19 years. (The average age of the UK's fleet is 4.9 years). If the paper's assumptions hold (they may be out of date now), it would make more sense for the government to pay us to keep our old bangers on the road."

Hmmmm

Chris
 
This whole thing is making me extremely angry. A statistic I heard yesterday was that it would take 25 years running the new car to get equate to save the carbon footprint created from it's manufacture, versus keeping the old car.

This is obviously a scheme to get the british public into more debt, to prop up (mainly foreign) companies that have overproduced. Nothing whatsoever to do with saving the enviroment, which strangely enough is the conclusion I am coming to regarding almost all of these so-called green measures.

Think of it like this, I drive a 20 year old 820 to work everyday, only about 7 miles each way, it only costs me £15 a week in petrol. On the motorway at a steady 70 it easily excedes 40mpg. The car cost me £1500 about 12 years ago and costs approx £100 a year (pessimistic guess, usually much less) in repairs. To replace it with the modern equivalent (remember you have to buy a new or 1 year old car) would be £27k for a basic 5 series, 22k for a basic X type jag (smaller than an 800), so even with the £2000 subsidy I'd be looking at £20k of credit.... Yeah right !, and guess what, due to the massive increase in vehicle weights, and the resultant increase in engine sizes to give similar performance, the fuel consumption is basically the same, so I wouldn't save much if anything on a weekly basis.

Now, if I was to downgrade to a cheap and nasty little box for about £7k, even if it acheived twice the mpg, we're looking at 5k to claw back in fuel savings, at £7.50 a week that's over 12 years ! And they'd want me to replace it again in 9 years max....

And you know what annoys me the most, we had a British car manufacturer that needed our help not too long ago, and guess what, they let it go to the wall, yet they're now desperate to prop up these foreign manufacturers with our money, well they know where they can shove it, they're not getting a penny from me. I'm seriously considering a tax exempt P6, converted to diesel, running on used Veg oil, then the only thing they'll get from me is the insurance premium tax.


They must think we're stupid !
 
webmaster said:
They must think we're stupid !

They don't think we're stupid, they think we're docile and will take any crap they throw at us.

Unforntunately, they're right.

All of these new laws they are making daily are undermining our right to protest about it too!
 
I think a lot of people are quietly seething but looking for someone to lead them into uprising

You can only kick a dog so many times before it turns and bites
 
webmaster said:
I'm seriously considering a tax exempt P6, converted to diesel, running on used Veg oil, then the only thing they'll get from me is the insurance premium tax.
..Don't you have to pay a fuel tax every year even if you use ccoking oil, Richard?
I'm sure they get you that way too! :x So much for "environmental" concerns!

Phil. :D
 
Phil Robson said:
..Don't you have to pay a fuel tax every year even if you use ccoking oil, Richard?
I'm sure they get you that way too! :x So much for "environmental" concerns!

Phil. :D

You can use a certain amount per year (ISTR it was quite a considerable amount too) without having to pay any duty. I'm not sure how they would ever know how much you were using.
 
A statistic I heard yesterday was that it would take 25 years running the new car to get equate to save the carbon footprint created from it's manufacture, versus keeping the old car.

And how long does the new car last until it's beyond repair or there's another scheme to scrap it ?
 
I keep chaining my mind on this. I start to think about the effect it will have on used car prices. People who can not afford 8k for a new car even with the 2k from the government and often run sub 1k cars for a couple of years, like my brother, will be priced out as the sellers will expect a higher return. I should really go read the scheme details fully, there maybe a clause in there saying you have to have owned the car of a while, if not there should be. I also get concerned about all the future classics going up in smoke. At the mo who cares about Mk5 escorts? No one but in twenty years time this scheme will make them as rare as rocking horse sh*t.

But then as I think about that last statement I made I start to wonder if that is a good thing. Will it push the price up for us who have what I call a real classic, making our cars more desirable. I also think about my neighbour who needs a new car, her car is knackered although road legal. She does care work for old folk and needs wheels. She went to get a new car but could not get finance even though she has a good job and no debts! This 2k cash back deal will help her and 'should' allow her to secure finance. (I believe part of the deal is underwriting of car loans on new cars).

You could put it this way, are we really moaning that the government will give us 2k :shock: towards a new car? Would we moan too if they offered us £200 towards a new flat screen TV if we throw out our old square CRT TV's?

I can't decide which side of the fence to drop....... :?
 
I'd still prefer to have freedom to drive what I want
And I'd doubt if any Government run scheme would really benefit the consumer like the scheme where they give you a grant of £x to have a new heating system as long a syou use one of their contractors who charge twice the going rate so you end up worse off
 
DaveHerns said:
I'd still prefer to have freedom to drive what I want
And I'd doubt if any Government run scheme would really benefit the consumer like the scheme where they give you a grant of £x to have a new heating system as long a syou use one of their contractors who charge twice the going rate so you end up worse off

Yes, and I'll bet that to get your £2K trade in you will have to buy a brand new car at list price. No deals with this one.

They will twist it somehow to ensure that the consumer is shafted.
 
DaveHerns said:
And I'd doubt if any Government run scheme would really benefit the consumer like the scheme where they give you a grant of £x to have a new heating system as long a syou use one of their contractors who charge twice the going rate so you end up worse off

My parents used that scheme. Worked really well for them, got all the down stairs done with a really powerful combination boiler. They paid a little extra to get some radiators in the bedrooms. But the final bill to them was a few hundred pounds.
 
As you say, there'll be no deals done on these cars, so that'll wipe out £1000 of your £2000 straight off.
I can't believe they are actively encouraging the public to get further into debt, when it's that debt that got us into this mess in the first place.
And what happens in 3 years time when they want you to buy another new car but you've still got 5 years to run on the finance ? - More debt please !

These tactics will simply delay the inevitable, and make the final outcome worse. So you trade in your nice reliable old motor and buy a new cheap-sh*t little car, with say £5k of finance, over 3 years (with interest) that's likely to be around £300 a month, now what happens in 3 months when you lose your job because the economy is still stuffed ?, they reposes the car and you're carless ! (and £900 down) Plus you can't buy a cheap banger anymore because they're all worth £2k !

Whatever happened to make do and mend ?

The girl with the knackered car, would be better off saving for a better but still old car, paying cash so she owes nothing, then finding a friendly local independent garage (there are still some good ones) to look after it, still considerably cheaper than the finance on a new car. Or just get the current car sorted.
 
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