su tuning

jonnydurex

New Member
just been reading latest practical classics,theres a helpline answer about tuning twin su's on a midget using a screwdriver tip to lift the dashpot,is this method the same for a su's? Will it save me buying a colourtune?

While i'm on,going to start running on optimax with octane boost,wot should the timing be?
 
This process relates specifically to HIF6 carburettors.

To set the idle mixture, wind out each mixture screw in turn, noting the point at which the revs start to drop, verifying with a tachometer connected within the engine bay, then turn screw in one half turn. Repeat for the other carburettor. The engine should be set to idle at 600rpm when making these adjustments. The air flow through each carburettor should also be checked and adjusted via the idle speed setting screws if necessary.

Lifting the piston with a screw driver is done when you don't have "lift pins" fitted, which the HIF6 carburettors do have. If when you lift the pin the engine revs increase, then the mixtrue is too rich, if they rise and then settle back then you are close to the mark, and if the revs drop then too lean. This all assumes though that the idle mixture is in the region of 4% CO which was the setting stipulated when the cars were new in the 1970s. In relality, that mixture setting is far richer than it needs to be. As a consequence, using the lift pins to determine a setting no longer really applies.

The taper of the needle sets the mixture for all engine speeds off idle, and under no circumstances should the mixture screws be adjusted at engines speeds other than at idle.

Dynamic timing can be set anywhere from 0 to 6 degrees BTDC @ 600rpm, vacuum advance disconnected,..experiment and see what the engine will tolerate before pinking occurs, then back off the timing a touch and test again. You can experiment with more advance, but chances are high that pinking will result.

Ron.
 
so i can do the idle mixture but then the pin method is no good?

Looks like i'm off to halfords to get a colourtune,7mpg is costing me a fortune!
 
If you set the idle mixture as indicated above via the mixture adjustment screws, then that will get you fairly close to the mark. It will certainly be leaner than 4% CO. At 7mpg, your mixture setting is running rich in the extreme :shock:

When did you last change your air filters? Have you changed the mixture needles, or have they been changed by someone on your behalf? What needles are you using? For the P6B running HIF6 carburettors, the needles are either BBG (10.5 : 1 CR ) or BBV (9.25 : 1 CR ).

These needles are standard factory fit, and provided the air cleaners are as per original specification along with the exhaust, then adjusting the idle mixture as indicated will see an acceptable air / fuel ratio from idle and for all subsequent points throughout the rev range.

Ron.
 
It would also be a very good idea to check the floats and make sure that they are not filling with fuel. They should be set to a depth of 40 thou ideally. If the float depth is more than ideal, then the mixture off idle could tend to be too rich. Float depth less than ideal, and the mixture could run lean off idle.

Ron.
 
Gents

I approach SU tuning from the point of view of an engineering understanding of what the carb is trying to achieve together with highly successful practical experience on an MGC (3ltr staight six).

SU's work on the principle that fuel is let into the engine in response to the level of suction in the inlet manifold. This pulls up the piston pulling the tapered fuel needle out of a hole (the main jet) containing a petrol feed, the more suction the bigger the effective hole to spill petrol into the inlet manifold. The amount of petrol entering the engine is then a function of the suction (aka size of fuel hole) and the amount of airflow. The airflow is a function of engine speed and throttle opening.

So, starting at the beginning, make sure the carbs are in good condition and there are no defects influencing what goes on. You'll need to get fast of a carb overhaul kit - check out http://www.burlen.co.uk/default.aspx for lots of usefull info and spares.

The really important thing to do first is make sure the float chambers are in A1 nick and that the petrol level is correct. You'll want to change the floats and needle cut off valves while doing this. If these are wrong, in worst case the fuel pump is able to just pump straight through into the engine without restriction, or the fuel level in the float chamber will be wrong which will affect the amount of fuel that comes out of the hole (or jet) as the needle is raised. The web site above has all the info you need.

Next check out the throttle butterfly spindles and operation of the various lever mechanisms. Repair any obvious defects, you might finish up needing new spindles or at worst a carburettor body if there is slop or clearance - that would let unplanned air flow into the carb.

Next match the dashpots. I do this by removing the dashpots and pistons from the carbs and removing the oil damper from the top of the dashpot. With everything cleaned up check that the fall time, ie how long it takes the piston to fall out of the dashpot, is the same for both carbs. I'd lay a very large amount of money that it won't be and by quite a big margin. At that point it helps to have a few spare carbs lying around. Simply mix and match dashpots and pistons until you can achieve an identical fall time. The significance of this is that if the fall times are not matched then a given manifold vacuum will cause a diffeerent response from each carb and you'll never be able to set the engine up! I found this to be by far the most critical action with twin SU's and yet I've never seen it written up anywhere.

Next check out the needles, if there is any marking at all on the needles, change them.

Then you are on to the throttle linkage. Everything is unclampable and adjustable, which is great for inveterate fiddlers (like me) but also increases the chances of things having moved! So set up the throttle linkage so that you achieve the best compromise between 1, both throttles crack simultaneously and 2, both throttles reach fully open simultaneously. In theory you should be able to do both but I bet you can't! Sounds basic but you could have lost some of the bushes in the linkage, got a bent rod, things "moved over time" etc etc.

A natural progression at this point is to set the chokes up so both chokes operate together (but getting the idle speed etc set up is for later when the rest of the carbs are set).

Very rarely on the V8 you could also be upset by a defective joint between the carbs and the engine (carburettor to manifold or manifold to head) drawing air in after the carbs.

All carburettor tuning must be done with the ignition system operating as it should - so satisfy yourself on condition of points, plugs and static ignition timing. Its worth checking also that the distributor inertia advance is working (you should be able to twist the plate holding the points against a spring) and the vacuum advance is working (suck down the tube, if nothing happens your ok, if your lucky you might be able to see the baseplate twist a little as well; if you can draw air the diaphragm at the distributor is split).

Now you're on to the exciting bit! Hopefully the engine still runs at this point, so warm it up. You can worry about cold start performance and final setting the chokes up later!

Now you need to be able to asses whether the engine is running weak (too little petrol) mixture or rich (too much petrol). The easiest way of doing this is to use a "colourtune" - a replacement spark plug with a quartz body that lets you see the colour of the flame inside the cylinder. Otherwise an exhaust gas analyser will do the job (but likely to be garage equipment rather than home workshop) but is more difficult because it averages out the two carbs rather than showing you exactly what is happening in one cylinder.

Next set a fastish idle speed (1200rpm?) and use the idle adjustment screws to get the same amount of air going down each carb. With the air cleaner off just use a piece of old heater hose to listen to the airflow into each carb - a bit like a doctor's stethoscope - and get the wheezing the same. Then use the colourtune to set the first carb's mixture so that the flame is just on the point of turning from blue to orange. Swap the colourtune into a cylinder fed by the other carb and repeat. The airflow will now be wrong so you need to reset that and then go on and check the mixture again. Repeat until everything is correct at the same time, then reset the idle speed back to normal, again re-balancing the airflows.

That process is often referred to as balancing or tuning the carbs, but note that it only looks after low throttle running and response from idling. The work you did earlier with the throttle linkage and piston fall time is what counts when you're pedal to the metal!

Finally it is time to set up the choke response and there I would simply follow the manual.

This process is identical for the 4 cylinder engine, but there you could also be upset by a defective or missing heat shield between the carbs and the exhaust manifold.

Once you understand the principle here, its all very simple, if a little time consuming.

Note I haven't mentioned the dashpot lift pin once! So what is it there for? Well if all the peceding had been completed (or was 100% on a new car set ex factory) you would still expect the mixture setting of the carbs to drift slightly, especially during the running in period. So the lift pin test allows you to asses the state of the mixture setting alone on an otherwise perfectly set up engine. In other words it's a quick dodge to use at the first service after running in!

Chris
 
well my air filters were nearly as black as my spark plugs,also had leaking exhaust manifolds too! They are off and i'm just waiting for some bilt hamber deox to arrive then i can paint them,and with new gaskets,put it back together and see about tuning it,should be around thursday
 
Hello Jonny,

New air filters will certainly make a world of difference to your wonderful Rover. They may well have been the major factor as to why your engine was running so rich. While you are there, a new engine breather filter and some new flame traps won't go astray either.

Do make sure that their hoses and the brass pipes that they fit over on each carburettor are also free of any build up. They do tend to accumulate a layer of "dry dirt" which gradually inhibits full engine breathing.
A blockage anywhere here will also help to make your carburettors run rich.

Ron.
 
Next match the dashpots. I do this by removing the dashpots and pistons from the carbs and removing the oil damper from the top of the dashpot. With everything cleaned up check that the fall time, ie how long it takes the piston to fall out of the dashpot, is the same for both carbs. I'd lay a very large amount of money that it won't be and by quite a big margin. At that point it helps to have a few spare carbs lying around. Simply mix and match dashpots and pistons until you can achieve an identical fall time. The significance of this is that if the fall times are not matched then a given manifold vacuum will cause a diffeerent response from each carb and you'll never be able to set the engine up! I found this to be by far the most critical action with twin SU's and yet I've never seen it written up anywhere.


How very true Chris. Which is odd as it is so critical to the setting up of any multi SU carbs !

also:
I did have a real head scratcher some years ago on a customers car when the bi-metallic jet mounting on one carb failed (it had started to fall apart) it was very apparent that it was only one carb that was the cause of the over rich mixture, that carb was stripped down three times before the bi-metallic holder was found to be "tired" to say the least. New one fitted problem cured.
 
chrisyork said:
Next match the dashpots. ....... I found this to be by far the most critical action with twin SU's and yet I've never seen it written up anywhere.

Chris,

you don't get involved too much with A series vehicles, don't you?
David Vizzard goes through the whole process in detail in his book "Tuning BL's A series engine".

Actually the book contains a lot of useful information on SU carbs.

Demetris
 
I too had trouble with the bi-metalic compensator.

Hope I haven't missed this in Chris's long text but I didn't see mention of the main spring which pushes the piston down. These probably don't cause much trouble but in theory have a reasonable effect on the piston lifting. I'd suggest ensuring they are at least the same length.
 
Hello Each,
an important point missed here, I think, and re-inforced by "Dickie Seat" in this month's (December?) CLASSICS MONTHLY magazine -
Don't forget what my dear old Auntie says,
"Always set ALL the ignition settings (points, plugs, ignition timing, condenser, ht & lt leads etc. etc. BEFORE twiddling the carbs!"
(Waste of time, effort and money if ignition circuit has faults!)
Regards, John.
 
JohnGlinn(Cardiff) said:
Hello Each,
an important point missed here, I think, and re-inforced by "Dickie Seat" in this month's (December?) CLASSICS MONTHLY magazine -
Don't forget what my dear old Auntie says,
"Always set ALL the ignition settings (points, plugs, ignition timing, condenser, ht & lt leads etc. etc. BEFORE twiddling the carbs!"
(Waste of time, effort and money if ignition circuit has faults!)
Regards, John.

Good point John..and for those who'd like a pair of new HIF44's to fiddle with after....

Carbs!
 
ok,everythings back together after the manifold paint fiasco,put some shell v power in plus redex lead sub and octane booster,thought i'd try the lift pins and ond makes the revs go up and the other makes the engine cut out? And wheres the mixture screw? Haynes only shows hu6 or do i need glasses?
 
Jonnydurex,
HIF SU Carbs mixture adjustment screw – cross slotted screw recessed just above float chamber flange joint. See arrow on image.
Way back when they were current models this recessed screw was sometimes covered with an alloy anti=tamper plug (so that customers could not fiddle ! ) but doubt if any are still covered up 30+ years later.

Adjustment: Screw clockwise richens mixture (lowers jet tube)
Screw anti-clockwise weakens mixture(raises jet tube)
 

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i did think that looked most likely but knowing my luck it put oil in the ashtray or something! So i guess one carb is very rich and the other very weak,explains the rough running until it warms up
 
I have been giving due consideration to the comments that I made in an earlier post regarding the use of the SU lift pins.

On reflection, those comments were incorrect. Using the lift pins is an ideal way to ensure that the idle mixture is very close to being spot on, certainly with a standard needle fitted in a factory standard engine.

Ron.
 
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