Tax Exemption or Not

I've just checked back on the DVLA site and to gain the points, the components must come from the ORIGINAL vehicle, not just be of the same specification, I guess this is to stop you taking a base unit with reg number, and then building it up from parts from several different cars and claiming it is the original car. (Which of course is very common in P6 circles)

I actually think that many P6 owners need to be worried about these checks, if they can prove that the diff, gearbox, and engine are not original to the car, (and you didn't buy them new) then you could have a problem.

In terms of new / reconditioned, I believe that remanufactured parts count as "new" but you must be able to prove it.

Looking at the points system, Original (Unmodified) body, suspension and Steering assembly gives you enough points to retain the current plate.

Any monocoque body modification renders the body non-original, this appears to include even minor mods to the transmission tunnel etc, so I also suspect that the Australian type body mods would give you a problem. However remember this only applies to the monocoque body, not non-structural bolt on panels, so you could french / shave / spoiler your p6 as much as you liked.

Back to the TAX, I agree with Chris, that is why I maintain we should scrap the tax system and just apply it to fuel duty, then big, inefficient engined vehicles are penalised most, but only if we use them !

Lots of questions still remain, if you lower the suspension does that lose you 2 points ?
 
These are all very valid points we're all making but the essence of it is this, it has nothing to do with green this or emissions that, it's purely because the country's going skint and we've got to pay for Gordon rewriting the financial rulebook that this is now happening. As far as emissions are concerned a new car puts out more harmful emissions during startup and the first 10 or so mins of driving than your classic will (not including trabants :LOL: )in a typical journey dependant on driving style and so on, not only that the materials used in the manufacture of a new vehicle have a absolutely catastrophic effect on the planet, not only that but the disposal of these materials after use, also consider the free radicals produced during the combustion process when exposed to the catalysing process and also that the replacement for the lead in fuel being Benzene (this being far more dangerous to health than the lead it replaced). Anyway, I can't really do this subject justice in a short space, as you can imagine it's very involved, but suffice to say their enviro-arguments are in my opinion a scam and as we already know just another way of removing money from us.
As already stated, beware of the VOSA checkpoints, they may come to a town near you soon and you'd be surprised how a two week training course can make them more of an expert on your car than your 20+ yrs of experience will ever manage, and they hold all the cards. If they say retest under BIVA regs you've got to do it, at your expense. And at 400 odd quid you could do without it.
I think of it this way, I refuse to pay because Gordon didn't do his sums right, I didn't run up tons of debt, I didn't live beyond my means, all I do is run my classic to and from work and hit the odd car show on the weekends. If Gordon wants to tax the life out of us and penalise our choices then I'll be sure to get my passport renewed and take my skills abroad.
 
Hi,
if it does pass the test, as i am not up on this

A, how long does it last :!:

B, or can you get picked on and be made to have another at any time :!:

C, what happens if you can not afford it :!:

joseph
 
sowen said:
Would the p6 pass the BIVA though?
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Probably not, I've downloaded the manual (http://online.businesslink.gov.uk/Transport_files/124_IVA_M1_Inspection_Manual__Version_4.pdf) and am reading it at the moment, straight away I'm fairly sure a P6 steering wheel will fail, however the steering column etc should pass due to the very safe bulkhead mounted design, you would need to fit a padded wheel to pass.

That's the first thing I've found... You would need a full set of seatbelts, and front lap-only would fail..... you get the idea.

I even suspect that the telltales on top of the front sidelights may be considered dangerous !

However from what I've seen so far, none of it would put me off modifying a P6.

So basically you either keep your car pretty much standard, or you have to fully mod it and pass the IVA, or you do a few minor mods and take your chances, I'm not sure what the consequences of driving a non-compliant but otherwise fully legal vehicle are, if it's just a case of the vehicle being removed from the road until it complies, then I suspect many people would just take the chance and then sort it out if they are forced to, if fines / criminal prosecution are involved then that's a different story.

Also how this applies to vehicles that were modified years before the regs change, I don't know.
 
When a car,"p6" was built how many of the parts had a number on them that was listed on the build record as identifying it to that particular car??
Base unit,engine,poss the gearbox & axle!
There is no way the powers that be can tell if all the bolt on panels,trim,seats,main suspension items are from different cars!
And if you had to replace an original engine with one from a s/h car ,or repainted it,I would hope that the DVLA were informed at the time,to amend the V5 keeping things legal.
The thought of them descending on the classic car industry is farcical!
Too many cars out there have been restored using s/h parts to prove if they are right or wrong,and in "current" law you are innocent till they can prove otherwise!
 
I'll be sure to get my passport renewed and take my skills abroad.
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And have you seen how much it costs to be "free" these days ? You're looking at a minimum of £77.50 for a new / renewed passport.
 
pilkie said:
When a car,"p6" was built how many of the parts had a number on them that was listed on the build record as identifying it to that particular car??
Base unit,engine,poss the gearbox!
There is no way the powers that be can tell if all the bolt on panels,trim,seats,main suspension items are from different cars!
And if you had to replace an original engine with one from a s/h car ,or repainted it,I would hope that the DVLA were informed at the time,to amend the V5 keeping things legal.
The thought of them descending on the classic car industry is farcical!
Too many cars out there have been restored using s/h parts to prove if they are right or wrong,and in "current" law you are innocent till they can prove otherwise!
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I agree, however I believe gearbox and diff numbers were recorded.

I suspect there is a lot of scare mongering going on ! However I think we need to be prepared, the days of innocent until proven guilty are long gone !
If you buy a car and the numbers match the V5, how are you to know ?
 
harveyp6 said:
Willy Eckerslyke said:
harveyp6 said:
It's not a case of losing the points if you change the engine/gearbox/axle, you only lose the points if you change to items that are not original. Normal maintenance is not a problem if you replace like with like.
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Only if the replacement items are new. Fit a brand new engine, axle, chassis, etc. of the same spec and it still earns its points, but if it's a secondhand one it does not.
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I don't think so, because even when the cars were new, and I was working on P6's at that time, engines, gearboxes and axles were all supplied reconditioned and fitted by the main dealer on an exchange basis.
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I think you misunderstood my point there. I was refering to the actual ruling (confirmed by Webmaster). I agree it makes no sense, especially considering exchange items as you describe. But thems the rules.

However, realistically I don't believe we have much to worry about as long as we don't do anything really blatant. You only have to look at the number of tax exempt "Series" Land Rovers running on coil springs, fitted with 200tdi engines and Defender front ends to see how far some folk are willing to push things. Eg. eBay items 110498020814 (Stage 1s were only made for a couple of years around 1980!); 280466174859; 220558195924; 230443527714...
 
Taken to its limit the full enforcement of these regs would see most, if not all of the cars currently tax exempt losing that status as witnessed by what has been written previously. Without the original build sheets gearbox and axle numbers will be very difficult for them to prove, and even with that info I'm not sure it would help them. My interpretation still remains that providing parts have been replaced like for like you'll still get the points. A VOSA man with 2 weeks training and a white coat may well have the authority, but he most certainly won't have the knowledge if he comes up against the right (wrong?) person. Been there done that on another unrelated matter, where they were looking for something that wasn't there to be found, and once they threatened to dismantle the truck to look for it, I just told them to go ahead, and I'd come back to collect it once they'd put it all back together again...........Needless to say after lots of mumbling and shuffling about I was on my way.

I think that providing you don't take things to the extreme (and we all know the types of vehicle we're talking about) you won't have too much to worry about.
 
Points well put Harvey, it does depend on who they pick on to more or less a degree. Unfortunately it's this sort of legislation that impacts the wrong people, I see no point in making up more catch-all laws if the people they're designed to impact upon never cared about the law in the first place, all it does is make it harder for all of us that are towing the line and just enjoying a hobby and also keeping some of our history alive while we're at it. The reason I say it depends on who they pick on is that a poor unfortunate young lad came to my workshop a while back after a free VOSA "MOT". And I do not exagerrate when I say his brand new Kawasaki 125 came to me in 2 bread crates and a bucket. His first bike destroyed looking for a restrictor which if they'd have looked in the exhaust and CDI unit they would've blatantly been able to see, not only that they lost both wheel spindles and chewed the fasteners undoing them. His parents were beside themselves thinking they'd done something wrong and the lad missed the start of his college course as it was meant to be his transport to and from. Bloody shocking!!
I think that FBHVC needs to look into this whole BIVA thing and maybe publish something to equate the hysteria that has been stirred up in the classic press recently, not only that the classic media has to be more responsible in what they print. They have a duty to provide information to us, that's what we pay for after all, I know that the powers that be that own the mags/papers etc need to shift copies but there's no need to go all daily mail on us.
 
webmaster said:
sowen said:
Would the p6 pass the BIVA though?
Click to expand...

Probably not, I've downloaded the manual (http://online.businesslink.gov.uk/Transport_files/124_IVA_M1_Inspection_Manual__Version_4.pdf) and am reading it at the moment, straight away I'm fairly sure a P6 steering wheel will fail, however the steering column etc should pass due to the very safe bulkhead mounted design, you would need to fit a padded wheel to pass.

That's the first thing I've found... You would need a full set of seatbelts, and front lap-only would fail..... you get the idea.

I even suspect that the telltales on top of the front sidelights may be considered dangerous !

However from what I've seen so far, none of it would put me off modifying a P6.

So basically you either keep your car pretty much standard, or you have to fully mod it and pass the IVA, or you do a few minor mods and take your chances, I'm not sure what the consequences of driving a non-compliant but otherwise fully legal vehicle are, if it's just a case of the vehicle being removed from the road until it complies, then I suspect many people would just take the chance and then sort it out if they are forced to, if fines / criminal prosecution are involved then that's a different story.

Also how this applies to vehicles that were modified years before the regs change, I don't know.
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That is exactly how I've interpreted the rules. If you can prove the work was done prior to 1998, I'm sure you're in the clear with grandfather rights. Most of the lenses on my p6 are already E marked, but as you say, the telltales on the front may need to be removed. The glass on my p6, is however only DOT marked, so should be an instant fail. The steering column in my opinion would be a grey area, as it could in theory collapse on impact, but is not a true collapsible steering column. I don't know if the gutter rails will pass either, but they're not sharp so should be OK.

I've already come to the conclusion that mine will eventually go through the BIVA, and lose it's historic status, I just hope that I can keep the black and silver raised letter plates :? . An interesting point I've read somewhere is that as it would become a 'new' car, it should not need an MOT for three years, though that needs confirming :wink: :D
 
I've now printed the entire manual (286 pages), give me something to read !

The steering column should be ok as the "rack" is mounted to the bulkhead, a long way back from the axle line. I'm not sure whether it needs to be collapsible in this condition. I've considered using a corsa style electric assist column, which may or may not help.

If you end up with a Q plate then I don't think you would be able to use old style plates, you could always have some made up for shows though. I don't see the big problem with Q plates, people are always trying to avoid them, but in a heavily modified car your not trying to fool anybody into thinking it's standard, so it doesn't really matter.
 
webmaster said:
I don't see the big problem with Q plates, people are always trying to avoid them, but in a heavily modified car your not trying to fool anybody into thinking it's standard, so it doesn't really matter.
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The problem with Q plates is that because the Q signifies that the car is either non- standard, modified, or of indeterminate age, quite a few insurance companies are reluctant to insure them.
 
harveyp6 said:
webmaster said:
I don't see the big problem with Q plates, people are always trying to avoid them, but in a heavily modified car your not trying to fool anybody into thinking it's standard, so it doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...

The problem with Q plates is that because the Q signifies that the car is either non- standard, modified, or of indeterminate age, quite a few insurance companies are reluctant to insure them.
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I guess that's a problem with a near standard rebuilt classic, but with a heavily modified vehicle (assuming the mods are declared) you're already dealing with specialists and paying through the nose anyway. I also guess that having a IVA certificate helps in this situation anyway as the insurance know it has been tested to a reasonable level, not just an MOT.

What this suggests to me though is that if you just want the car to be faster, tune the standard engine, stick a couple of turbos on that V8 and you don't need a IVA etc. You can paint it silly colours and stick odd bits and bats on or shave them off, run big alloys (as long as you don't need to massage the D posts) without needing a test. Only when it comes to serious full engine, box, axle swaps, monocoque mods (like my coupe :cry: ) etc, are you going to need a test. You've just got to be carefull that what you consider a minor mod (like trimming the D posts) hasn't put you into an area where you need a test.
 
I can understand your concern with your coupe Richard. Losing the 5 points for the shell up front leaves you in a very tricky area. Perhaps this is a wake up call to use a standard 4 pot and box to get past the Go mark, and worry about replacement engines later? Once you have an MoT history I would have thought you were OK?

Chris
 
The problem is that substantially modifying the shell has in effect voided the original identity of the car, so it would require the IVA anyway, regardless of the points system. Once through the IVA, you are in fact starting off with a new car, so changing the engine and transmission will knock 3 points off the new identity, and if modifications to the bulkhead and tunnel were carried out to fit the different engine and transmission, it'll be back to the VOSA testing station for another IVA :roll:
 
restojon said:
As far as emissions are concerned a new car puts out more harmful emissions during startup and the first 10 or so mins of driving than your classic will (not including trabants :LOL: )in a typical journey dependant on driving style and so on, not only that the materials used in the manufacture of a new vehicle have a absolutely catastrophic effect on the planet, not only that but the disposal of these materials after use, also consider the free radicals produced during the combustion process when exposed to the catalysing process and also that the replacement for the lead in fuel being Benzene (this being far more dangerous to health than the lead it replaced).
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Do you have any sources of data to back-up your points there? :)

I'd be interested to read them.

Cheers,
Jim.
 
Hi tofufi,
I picked up this information from the S.A.E amongst others whilst I studied for my qualification as a motorcycle mechanic. There are other sources of information that are more widely available though, but it was some years ago and I can't remember everything exactly but I'll do my best. I seem to remember that some information from Ricardo's covered this subject, also some research by Honda sometime in the late 80's/early 90's into an engine that was partly fuelled by using the free radicals produced during the catalysed combustion process. This was to decrease emissions and more efficiently use the fuel and combustion by products, and iirc it was a two stroke engine that it was based on. I also seem to remember that it recycled the waste gas twice and mixed it with a fresh charge but I really can't remember more than that in that respect. The part about the benzene I seem to remember I picked up from a court case that was taken up against a major oil company from (I think) a school or a local authority(?) in respect of a refinery that was I believe producing Benzene in some way and many of the children developed leukaemia at about the same time. Obviously I don't know the details of the case as I was only interested in the scientific findings to support a project I did at college, so I had to strip the meat from the bones a bit there. Also a basic understanding of chemistry and metallurgy will lead you to the findings that catalysts behave differently from cold to hot and engine management systems adjusting mixtures/timings etc have a effect on the whole process. The metals used in the catalyst create the free radicals when exposed to these conditions and as you know after a set amount of time a catalyst has to be replaced as it is no longer useful, now it's when you dispose of this that environmental damage can also occur, the metals involved palladium, platinum, manganese and I think magnesium or is it phosphorous(?) amongst others reacts with fuel additives (added at the refinery) and other engine by products and creates toxins which are very harmful to the environment, I can't remember the exacts again here but I'm sure somebody may know, further to this as I mentioned above the metals included are of the precious variety, which have an environmental effect by firstly getting them out of the ground in the first place ( I believe a lot of it comes from Russia and Africa and has made parts of the land there complete no-go areas) this is also why you find catalysts being stolen from vehicles when parked due to their high scrap value.
I'm sorry I can't be more exact in this but I will try to have a delve round the net and see what I can find, it's been quite a few years since I did this work and I've only just recently got a computer so haven't really had the need to look it up but as I say I'm sure the information is there, but as I mentioned earlier having access to the S.A.E stuff was very helpful but isn't available to all unfortunately, and it is definitely verified as I'm sure other net sources wont be, but I'll see what I can follow up with, thanks for the interest.
Cheers,
Jon.
 
sowen said:
The problem is that substantially modifying the shell has in effect voided the original identity of the car, so it would require the IVA anyway, regardless of the points system. Once through the IVA, you are in fact starting off with a new car, so changing the engine and transmission will knock 3 points off the new identity, and if modifications to the bulkhead and tunnel were carried out to fit the different engine and transmission, it'll be back to the VOSA testing station for another IVA :roll:
Click to expand...

Exactly.

So if you've got to get an IVA anyway, you might as well have a massive trans tunnel, clear the bulkhead, and make a large bolt in plate with the gearstick opening roughly in the middle, so you can change the engine and box later without modifying the tunnel, just make a new plate. Basically make the shell as Generic as possible to give you most options later on.
 
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