3500EI

So the history of this set up continues to be complex. I hadn't twigged the bit about Brico being merged into AE. Brico is actually an abreviation of British Piston Ring Company. They were based in Foleshill in Coventry - not far from the original Rover works. I've traced apparent spin off companies doing architectural metalwork from the original Coventry site and a firm in Californai doing aircraft parts. The main company had a number of plants, at least one in Warwick, another in Leamington and several in Coventry besides the HQ site. The HQ site is still occupied by the original company, now trading as a division of Federal Mogul, and making sintered valve guides and stems. Clearly the company was heavily engaged in sintered iron production and I've found quite a number of conference notes and patents up until the early 90's relating to this.

I can find almost nothing on AE, clearly they are no longer with us! I am sure I remember them being absorbed into Lucas, but it could be i'm getting confused with AP.

Chris
 
That sounds about right Chris. I think Brico were working on Injection systems for Aston Martin and Jaguar's V12 at about that time. I think the Jag one was about to hit production when Lucas took over and sold Jag their own system instead.
Haven't had time to do much on it today, I gave the manifold a quick coat of paint and traced out a wiring diagram for the loom but I need to check a few more details before it makes sense.
 
KiwiRover said:
OK, Nick:
There is at least one surviving car of this batch, although it has had a replacement base unit/panels/interior and does not have the engine remaining, which was given by Rover to one of it's suppliers in 1972. They still have it.
What is your definition of "surviving"? Sounds like a different car to me. :LOL:

Well it's a car with a direct lineage to a fuel injection car!

KiwiRover said:
If that article comes about though, I'd very much like to read it! Have you read the JT article? He mentions 5 cars with 999 chassis numbers, all with *XC regos and most with 999 engine numbers. All registered late 1970 and despatched to various companies over the next few years.

That's the basic gist of it. I believe we uncovered more cars, and the '999' engines appear to be purpose built EFI engine.

I've not seen the JT article, seems he had uncovered some stuff we'd also found in research.
 
I'll see if I can scan it and PM it to you Nick. Unfortunately my laptop died a couple of weeks ago so all my scans and files are lost (temporarily I hope) and I don't know if my scanner will work with my borrowed laptop.
 
KiwiRover said:
I'll see if I can scan it and PM it to you Nick. Unfortunately my laptop died a couple of weeks ago so all my scans and files are lost (temporarily I hope) and I don't know if my scanner will work with my borrowed laptop.

If it's in a 'P6 News' I should have it - I have almost every copy up to the end of 2009. Surprised I've not read it.
 
It was in 1994. Can't remember the month right now but it will be listed in the last index. It was a full page article. Sorry, scanner not sorted yet.
 
from the Morgan engine development workshops

Morgan never did get the fuel-injection sorted for their USA models with the Rover V-8; from 1980 their USA imports were all dedicated LPG + didn't become petrol again 'til the early 90's when LandRover got their 3.9 through Federal emissions testing, then Morgan used identical engines, ECU's + catalysers to the LandRover to piggyback in on the certification

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/491-Morgan-Plus 8-215ci V8

'89 "50 States" Morgan with dedicated LPG, California Air Resources Board plate

14172.jpg


GW
 
Whoops, sorry Nick. Got me dates wrong. That article was in P6 news, december 1996, pg 4.

I've had a bit of a play with the wiring, plotting it's function and layout and today I dropped the manifold into a spare car and laid the loom over it to see where it fitted and I think I discovered a problem. How does the computer know when to fire the injectors? Judging by the colour codes on the injector wiring, the injectors are fired in batches of four, just like the later Lucas type. However, with the loom in the car, some of the wiring positions became more apparent and the wires that I thought went to a temp sensor on the front of the manifold clearly don't! This means that there are 3 wires terminating in a three pin plug that extends off the front of the manifold by about 8", long enough to reach a cam or crank position sensor or probably the distributor.
The wires are red/yellow, red/white and brown/white and they all go straight back to the ECU. I suspect a modified distributor was involved as the 2000FI certainly had one. I've emailed the guy I bought the system off to see if he can find anything but if he can't, how hard would it be to make something capable of doing the job? How did the injector timing work on the Lucas system?
Using the 2000 manual as reference I did manage to figure out that a pair of wires that have been chopped off were supposed to go to an air temp thermister that would have been screwed into the air cleaner housing. There is another cut wire and I suspect that is for the fuel pump but i'm not sure. I don't think i'll need it though as my car already has the factory electric pump in the back, I should just be able to replace it with a high pressure version.
I've also sent an Email to James Taylor to see if he knows anything. I'll be keen to see if that goes anywhere.
 
I had a very interesting day visiting Reg Mason in Birmingham today. Amongst other things we discussed injected P6's and had a good read of this thread. Reg is hopping mad he didn't spot this manifold on Ebay before Kiwi-Rover bought it! I don't think Reg would mind if I describe him as a Solihul insider. His links are with the service side, but in late Range-Rover Classic early P38 period. At that time he was reliably informed that injected P6's in the plural made it to the USA for trials and workshop training. This supports the contention that a Series 2 NADA was intended and nearly produced.

Reg's infamous car - discussed earlier on here - was indeed a factory car. It was still owned by the factory at the time Reg acquired it. It had been stolen from Solihull many years earlier and abandoned by the T Leafs in a field. Rover had never recovered it and its existance was gradually forgotten until Reg came to hear of it. At that time it was very far gone even by P6 standards. The infamous "Lucas Injection" badges were lying separate to the car, as there was no longer anything related to ferrous oxide to maintain their link with the car! As found the car was an automatic base unit with dual circuit brakes, factory A/C and trimmed to NADA spec, but with a manual gearbox and right hand drive. This sounds to me like a prototype S2 NADA that had been converted for use in the UK, perhaps as a gearbox mule prior to release of the UK 3500S.

Reg had only ever heard previously of injected P6's in the context of Lucas Injection. He supported this by producing a Plenum chamber from this type of injection, pictured below. From the top it is superficially of a family with the later Range-Rover 3.9 injection with which we are all familiar. But the throttle butterfly intake is on the drivers side instead of the passengers. Underneath you can see that the separation into 8 individual intake tracts has happened in the plenum, leading to 8 in line vents, aligned for and aft, to feed down into the inlet manuifold. And the plenum is very flat, with very little space for the air to be sorted out into the 8 distinct streams. It's no surprise, therefore, that this injection was remebered as being "not very good" (translate into engineering speak at your own risk!). It did re-emerge to production after P6 to be fitted to US market SD1's in 1980. So it ought to be feasible to obtain a set for comparison!

So now we can propose a sequence of events at Rover, which I am 99% certain is accurate. From 1966, Rovr had been working on fuel injection with a number of different suppliers. This was fairly quickly narrowed down to the Brico system. But Lucas continued to develop their own for customers other than Rover. The Brico system was approaching fruition, to the extent that marketing were busy devising model names and badges. Production and launch appears to have been scheduled for Atumn 1970 along with the home market S2 body revisions. But just prior to launch, Lucas bought Brico's parent company Associated Engineering. My suspicion is that Lucas did this to acquire their aerospace and automotive braking technologies. Faced with owning two equivalent and competing injection systems, Lucas pulled the Brico system, leaving Rover's S2 launch missing both the 2000EI and the 3500EI. The US programme was also in dissaray, as both the 4 cyl and the V8 would have had Brico injection there as well. The USA four cylinder went ahead with carburettors as the S2 Federal TC. But with the history of the auto choke on the S1 NADA, carrying over the carburettor V8 to an S2 NADA 3500 wasn't an option, and this model lapsed pending a replacement injection system.

Lucas now had a serious problem. Pulling a major customer's model launch at the last moment isn't known for producing smooth relationships. So Lucas would have been under huge pressure to produce a system, for the V8 at least, ASAP. Hence the system pictured here. There would then have been a second set of prototypes for the Lucas injection and some new badges to celebrate (!) the Lucas association. If, as reported, the system wasn't very good - and I see no reason to doubt this, as it was a) produced in a rush, and b) it looks a singularely unpromising design - then perhaps field reports from the US were negative. Combine this with knowledge of the poor quality of the US dealer network and the fact that carburretored cars were selling just fine in Europe and I can well imagine the bean counters pushing Rover into dropping the whole injection idea and withdrawing from the US altogether.

So I am confirmed in the belief that both the 3500EI and 3500S (Lucxas Injection) badges are genuine. Just that they are around a year apart, with the EI coming (or rather not coming) first and the 3500S Lucas Injection following as a replacement.















Chris
 

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That intake is indeed a Lucas system. It went into full (albeit limited) production for the SD1s and TR8s for the American market in about 1979-81. I think some of them also were fitted to Australian market SD1s. It is generally considered inferior to the later Lucas system from a performance perspective but it was designed as an emission control intake. They are relatively available in the US. Not sure how early the development history goes on them though.
 
I agree the published reason for using it on the SD1 and TR8 was to cope with emissions - but I think it was developed for the P6 and merely resuscitated to serve as an emissions solution. I've just been through the sequence of evemts with Nick, and we are sure the 999 series engines and cars are a pre production run of the Lucas injection, at least some of which went for evaluation and dealer training in the US, The timing of their production is correct for my prposed event sequence too. That implies there should be a pre production run of Brico engined cars as well, approximately a year before the 999 series. Interestingly several cars are hand annotated as being "Executive" models at about the right time. I wonder if that is what the "E" stands for? I'd assumed it meant 3500 Electronic Injection. Perhaps it's really 3500 Executive, Injection? Perhaps also, that's why not all the NADA equipment and trim refinements percolated down onto the S2. To leave space for an Executive model above the ordinary 3500 with A/C, electric windows, and the remaining trim refinements?

If that's right, then the very early S2 batch of A/C cars with the single centre scoop on an S2 bonnet really are the dying echoes of the injected executive!

Chris
 
And i guess if the ECU won't work there's always Megasquirt

Looking good! I came across these sites when I was considering Megasquirt as an option

http://www.msefi.com/index.php

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mintro.htm#group

and there's a Yahoo group for Megasquirt too.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirt_uk/

Even an I-Phone app. under development that uses a WiFi-RS232 connector, which looks v. "James Bond" ( Tune + map your injection off your 'phone )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MhNojpF4qKQ

Have Fun!

GW ( in the shaky Tokyo suburbs )
 
Thanks Graham! And very glad to see you're still with us btw. Hopefully you are as far away from those power plants as possible. It's times like these i'm SO glad NZ is Nuclear free!
 
Could you use something like an Autronic or MircoTech to run the injectors/timing etc with this setup

(rather than using a megasquirt)
 
I think we are putting the cart before the horse at thios stage, there really should be no reason why the origional ecu wont work and it would keep that 3500Ei badge much more kosher running factory bits.

graeme
 
THX Al + Graeme; hopefully we're all over the worst of what earthquakes have to throw at us, look forward to how your project progresses, Al

best
GW
 
Here's hoping Graham! My brother is actually due to visit his wife's family in Osaka in a few weeks, so he's hoping there's still a Japan to visit!

I think we are putting the cart before the horse at thios stage, there really should be no reason why the origional ecu wont work and it would keep that 3500Ei badge much more kosher running factory bits.

That's certainly my first choice Graeme. I like the idea of making it look as factory original as possible and hopefully it can be coaxed into life. I just need to figure out what that plug does...
 
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