Battery trouble-New Distributor on it's way

corazon

corazon

Well-Known Member
So....after the car being laid up for over a year with only a couple of start ups, the battery has decided it doesn't have enough juice to start her now.
I put it on quick charge earlier but it doesn't seem to have made any difference.
It's now on an overnight long charge, but i'm not holding out much hope.
It's a Varta battery with a power indicator-
Green for full battery
Dark Slate for needs charging
And Transparent for totally dead.

Trouble is it's very hard to tell if it's transparent or dark slate!

Is this the right type if i need to buy a new one?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300631843831?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Seems like an upgrade for a good price delivered, or would motor factors be just as cheap?
These bosch ones seem to vary in price wildly to over £100 online.

I have no idea how old the current varta battery is, so could well be the end of it's days :cry:
Jim
 
Re: Battery trouble

Your battery is dead, even a brand new battery neglected for a year would be dead. A rule of thumb for a brand new flooded lead acid is that if left uncharged for a month it will loose permanantly 10% of it capacity and so on for each succesive month. A used lead acid of unknown age will be dramatically worse as an older battery tends to self discharge at a much faster rate.
A solution to this problem is to get a Gel cell battery which does not self discharge to any where near the same degree and can be left in a charged state for 12 months or more with little ill affect also the CCA is far far greater from a gel cell as the battery impeadance is much lower than flooded cells however there is a down side in that you need an alternator or voltage regulator that can deal with the much higher initial recharge currents standard regs in alternators will die!

Graeme
 
Re: Battery trouble

Thanks for that Graeme, i thought as much.
It was bad planning on my part, we were moving to another country for an indefinite period- and consequently many things were forgotten/not thought through :shock:
I luckily had someone here in UK who agreed to start her every now and then, but should have got a trickle charger with hindsight :roll:
Has anyone used the solar trickle chargers?
As for the link i posted, is that the correct type?
 
Re: Battery trouble

Hi Jim,

The posts are in the correct position but the dimensions as given to me make it too large.

Ron.

P.S : I should add that my battery box as with other N.Z assembled Rovers is made from steel as opposed to the fibre glass resin type as found on U.K models. For this reason there could be a variation in the dimensions of batteries that are suitable for each.
 
Re: Battery trouble

Doctor Graeme
my battery ends up like Corazon's with lack of use .Gets fired up and driven about 40km once a month.
I use a smart trickle charger when its parked up but find I have to jump start with another battery as its not enough to make her initially fire with the one battery .
Once started the single battery will be sufficient for subsequent starts as long as she doesnt sit idle for more than a week.
What would be your diagnosis?
New battery in order ?
Have I hurt my alternator from too many jump lead starts ?
Are gell cells cost effective c/f replacing my standard battery every few years ?
Is it because my car is ALMOND ?
Its a P6b

Gerald
72 P6b
 
Re: Battery trouble

Sadly your car probably is in mourning, almond must just be the most embarrasing of car colours except maybe for blush pink!
A trickle charger should have done the trick but it may be that the trickle charger is current limited and not providing a high enough charge voltage.
A new lead acid start battery consumes about 100mA to maintain the 13.8 battery terminal voltage that it need to stay fully charged, as the battery ages the current required to maintain this terminal voltage increases to a higher figure due to sulfation, crud at the bottom of the battery and higher battery impeadance, it can rise to 300 or 400mA.
What I have done to overcome these problems is use a standard old fashioned battery charger and put a sepreate regulator on its output and set the voltage to 14.2 volts. This charge voltage is higher than the standard trickle voltage of 13.8V but does no harm and keeps the electrolyte in the battery exercised, yuo might want to check the battery water level every 12 months but it should be ok.
Another solution I employ is a solar panel, you need a solar panel of not less than 5 watts, I put a regulator set at 14.2V on the output and its just set and forget. Solar panel prices are dropping and can be got from your usual electronis DIY shops, bigger is better, I run a selection of small panels for a capacity of about 15 Watts and this keeps two of my cars very happy.

Graeme
 
Re: Battery trouble

Well the motor factors tested the battery and think it's ok..
So i have another issue.
I'm thinking the neglected battery couldn't initially fire the engine and in turn i've flooded it with fuel.
Now that the battery had been charged to it's potential, i still couldn't start her earlier.
The plugs are now very soiled, leading me to that conclusion.
I'm just cleaning them now, hopefully that will sort it.

I'm getting a spark from the dizzy, but it's a little weak and orange not a big blue spark...
Distributor cap is very new and clean and damp free, with pertronix ignitor.
I should be getting 12 volts from the non ballasted flamethrower coil when cranking right?
I tested the coil with ignition on only and got just 4V or therabouts..

I've cleaned up all the battery connections.
However I did notice the battery earth cable is a little worn looking.
Any thoughts?
 
Re: Battery trouble

Battery earth, engine earth, and bad connections on the insulator in the drivers footwell.
 
Re: Battery trouble

Something does not quiet add up, if jumpering the battery gave you a start, poor connections should not have made a difference unless you had bypassed the battery negetive side by going for a chassis connection with your jump battery (thinking a poor earth strap at the battery).
Still have pretty high odds the battery is is ill health regardles of the motor factors test.

Graeme
 
Re: Battery trouble

Graeme, i charged the battery overnight and it does read just over 12 volts with a voltmeter and subsequently gave me more cranking power, but seemingly still not enough.
I still haven't managed to start her.
I have cleaned up battery earth strap connections, but the braided cable is looking a little worse for wear.
Checked and tightened driver footwell insulator- no corrosion, and checked engine earth- all seems ok.
It did start a couple of months ago when i was still away, so it can't have changed that much since then.

The one thing i have done since i've returned to UK was change my choke cable so i'm wondering if i've upset something there
ie cabling through the firewall/bulkhead.

I have checked the ignition circuit a thousand times it seems. The car cranks but refuses to fire.
Unfortunately there's only my set of hands today, so i cant measure the voltage at certain points whilst cranking- coil for instance.
but as i said the flamethrower coil measures just over 4V with ignition on
Any more thoughts?

Time to try a new battery and earth strap?
Jim
 
Re: Battery trouble

Richard, I'm just waiting for another set of hands to get home so i can check different voltages :roll:
Battery is only measuring 11.9 now, i will update with the cranking voltage asap.
But i'm thinking the coil should definitely be reading more than it is..
Could a duff voltage regulator be giving these symptoms?
 
Re: Battery trouble

So to confirm:
Battery not under load 11.9V
Battery whilst cranking 8V
Coil whilst cranking 4V...
The flamethrower and ignitor certainly need more than that to work :?
 
Re: Battery trouble

corazon said:
So to confirm:
Battery not under load 11.9V
Battery whilst cranking 8V
Coil whilst cranking 4V...
The flamethrower and ignitor certainly need more than that to work :?
Click to expand...

corazon said:
Well the motor factors tested the battery and think it's ok..
Click to expand...

It sounds like they didn't test it very thoroughly then, maybe just stuck a hydrometer in it rather than using a high rate discharge tester, which would mimic the conditions when you're experiencing all the problems.
 
Re: Battery trouble

Think the voltage should be closer to 10v while cranking, sounds like a dead cell in the battery to me.

Not sure about your coil voltage though, that will depend on what your system needs, don't know anything about the flamethrower sorry.
 
Re: Battery trouble

Harvey,Richard and Graeme thanks for the support and advice
I feel my wallet opening for a new battery tomorrow morning :)
 
Re: Battery trouble

In as much as I would like to think that the battery test they did was conclusive I suspect they have given you a false result. Open circuit volts should be a minimum of 12.8 cranking about 10V, you should be seeing 10 V to the coil.

Graeme
 
Re: Battery trouble-Possible Ignitor failure

Well today i had some help in the garage from an experienced ex mechanic.
We did lots of testing, and have come to the conclusion that the pertronix ignitor module has failed.
Tested out of the distributor body, the module behaves erratically. It should fluctuate between 0 and battery voltage when the magnetic sleeve is rotated next to it.
It intermittently does read 0 but not regularly. Mostly only goes down to around 5 volts, then back to battery voltage.
I have tried this with a larger magnet to check that the sleeve was up to the job, which it is.
So in effect it's like points not opening far enough i guess.

To definitively check this, and to try and get the car finally started i decided to fit some old points i had.
Looking more closely at the distributor baseplate after removing the ignitor, i thought it didn't look right at all.
The top part of the plate where points attach is very low on one side.
It's actually missing two of the three nylon 'lugs' that separate the top plate form touching the lower one, rubbing together when rotated.
This must be affecting advance operation?

So i haven't yet fitted and tried with the old points, as i was concerned about the distributor.
When the top plate is in contact with the lower one surely the grounding is going through the whole distributor?
Also if the electronic ignitor magnetic sleeve is turning perpendicular on the shaft, the module would not be correctly in line as the baseplate is at this strange angle..
I would like to know what caused the ignitor failure if and when i have confirmed it's demise :x

I'm very tempted to just replace the whole distributor with a new electronic one right now
Jim
 
Re: Battery trouble-now possible ignitor failure

I have sent an email to Pertronix, and have bought an sd1 electronic distributor for less money than the cheapest electronic module available on ebay.
I just want to get her on the road for now.
I've heard mixed views on the sd1 dizzy, but some of you are running them with good results no?
It was described as excellent condition, and is a genuine Lucas item rather than an aftermarket copy.
I think it has the female drive gear, so i'll need to change for the male one right?

My original dizzy will then get refurbished and fitted with a replacement ignitor- hopefully honoured by Pertronix, and then used as a backup :roll:

What does anyone reckon to the baseplate? I tried replacing the points last night and the only way they could get close to opening, was with the dwell screwed as far in as possible. The only 'lug' is left next to dwell adjuster so the plate is 2mm or more higher that side. I'm going to try and start it today with the points, but it doesn't look promising :shock:

Jim
 
Re: Battery trouble-now possible ignitor failure

Hello Jim,

Yes there needs to be all three nylon pads for the proper smooth operation of the base plate on your 35D8 distributor.

With the SD1 electronic distributor, which type is it, 35DE8, 35DM8 or 35DML8? Does it have the amplifier on the side? I am assuming that you have bypassed the ballast resistor and your current coil is a 12V item?
Yes you will need to remove the wobbly drive and fit the earlier P6 type in order to accomodate your oil pump gears. Ideally you should use the one on your exisiting distributor as it will have been running with the camshaft gear right from the start and they wear together. If you now fit a new distributor drive gear without also fitting a new corresponding camshaft gear, there is a very real possibility of an early failure of the former.

Ron.
 
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