(Budget) Historic Rally Car Project

Hi,

Great to see pics of the new rear suspension arrangement and I glad that you have very positive distractions vying for your time :D

As always your attention to detail and engineering prowess impresses and I’m sure the result will be a car that is capable of much better times on the tests and selectives.

Keep up the great work,

Tim
 
How will the car drive after fitting the Jag IRS, with a LSD?
At road speeds it should not feel that different to the standard Rover with it's De Dion. Both are great suspensions with similar qualities; low unsprung weight and and camber control, giving good ride. The P6 and any Jag are famed for their ride qualities. Where the Jag IRS will be better is the LSD stopping the inner wheel spin on corner exit. This may promote understeer at fast road speed, due to the plate diff locking the rear wheels together stopping the car turning, but once off the tarmac or at faster speeds the LSD should really start working for the car allowing a controlled oversteer.
We are losing time at events during a 360 turn around a cone in a tight farmyard. With the LSD a driver should be able to hug the cone with the rear wheels spinning in a controlled manor. With the Rover open diff we could get the rear to slide using the handbrake, but when putting the power on the inner wheel would spin and at an predictable time the outer wheel would suddenly grip. If this happened once we had opposite lock wound on, the car would now be turning out of the corner rather than into the corner; this is what I want to stop happening. I anticipate that 5 second could be found at every 360 cone and more time will be found on every corner exit as we can get on the power without spinning the inside wheel. Remember a spinning tyre will give less forward acceleration than a non-spinning wheel.
Also, with a rear axle that is less prone to wheel spin, we can now fit a rear anti-roll bar, to keep the car more upright and as the front suspension has little roll camber recovery this should produce more front-end grip than we currently have.
A big down which we are not that worried about is, if you have noticed, the whole rear end is solidly mounted to the chassis. No rubber at all, even the dampers have spherical bearing and the jag suspension is all needle roller bearing. This will transmit every knock and bump up into the car, a good point is you'll hear a diff or wheel bearing starting to go.

Yes, as you say rockdemon I too am interested to how it actually drives afterwards!!

So, needing a mounting for the coil over dampers, a pocket was cut in to the existing Rover diff mounting cross box.


Which an inner and outer 1/8" plate was welded, a damper mounting pocket is formed. The bolt will be double shear and the mounting point is stiffly mounted to the chassis rails, just what a race car needs. Here I've also added a lateral location strut for the bottom of the rear diff mount subframe. I was so sure this is strictly need but it will do no harm.

I've then got the other side to do.

Once I mounted the damper into the pocket, the upper spring mount was rubbing against the chassis, so I need an offset spacer to put the damper 3mm more inboard. Must correct the CAD model!!
 
Postman left me a Jag handbrake cable yesterday, as with everything Jag, a quality product; with a Jag price tag. The inner wire is coated in a low friction material and rubber dirt excluders everywhere. I think it should be fairly easy to make a link from the Rover lever to the Jag cable.

As I’ve got an MOT date of next Saturday 22nd Sept, I’m trying to work hard on the car. I even have a to-do list:
• Welding of 'only tacked' strong points to chassis
• Paint everything
• Remove IRS from Rover, Assemble IRS, attach IRS to Rover.
• Make a handbrake cable Rover to Jag adaptor
• Make Rover brake circuit to Jag brake calipers pipe adaptor; A flexi, the Rover one I have may do.
• Fuel Pipe; the std Rover pipes under the tank need to point in a different direction. The Jag brakes are very close. A visit to an industrial hydraulics shop should sort this.
• Anti-Roll Bar; I've not looked at this, I look tonight and see what is involved in fitting the Jag XJS one, although it will need narrowed.


I’m taking a holiday from work tomorrow, so should get a lot done.
 
Take it to a garage specialising in MOTs on new cars and see if they spot it's non-standard !
Do you need an engineer's report for your insurance company?
 
Hi,

As always incredible work Gavin against an aggressive schedule now, I know you have an eye on the Circuit of Ireland retrospective on the weekend of the 29/30th September, not much shake down time :roll:

Dave, MOT’s here in NI are all conducted in very sterile government run test centers so although you can choice which one to take the car too they should all be the same. The first time we took the P6 to the MOT the guy spent ages looking at the rear suspension and when we asked him if there was a problem he said no he was just trying to work out how it worked :LOL:

I'll sign an engineers report on this any day :wink:

Can’t wait to see her back on the road, good luck :D

Tim
 
Hi Dave,
As Tim says the MOTs here are a bit different to GB.

The insurance company does not want an Engineer's report or is it an engineer's report? As I'm an Engineer, as is Tim and my Dad and Tim's dad, I was disappointed that they didn't want a report from an Engineer. They said they only needed a report if I was changing an engine but I'm a lot more nervous about driving a modified chassis and modified suspension/transmition/brakes from another car, than I would ever be after changing an engine. They did asked me if changing the 'axle' would change the performance of the car, I didn't really know the answer to that one; I am hopping we can do sustained doughnut turns.
After they informed me the policy would be loaded +50%, I later wrote a letter detailing all the mods we have done, just to keep things right. +50% is not that bad really as they insure us during our rallies; yes I have told them what we do.

Last time I took my BSA to the MOT test centre the tester who must have only just seen his 20th birthday at one point stood at the front of the bike and pointing to brakes kept repeating "...but it has cable brakes!!". Later on trying to fail me on my hand painted black number plate, it was the non-reflective properties he was questioning, a near retirement tester took him aside and after a few quite words in his ear the young fellow returned saying "That's all ok then, I'll get your pass papers."
Gav.
P.S. I was thinking of adding an Airbag dash light that doesn't work to see what the MOT says!!! What about a "No ABS dash light"
 
You may like to know the progress, but probably like me be a little disappointed in the progress.

After a spending Saturday painting with the POR-15 paint system, progress was slow on Sunday.
The paint system is a fair amount of effort, with cleaning, Metal Prep and finally two coats of paint; I happy to say so far it looks to be the best paint I've used. The Metal Prep leaves an Galvanised look to the metal, with the paint being very thin leaving a very high gloss finish. Such a high gloss that when applying the second coat it is hard to see the coverage as everything is glossy.
So with all parts painted, on Sunday I set about changing the wheel bearings. It took ages for me to design a way to get the pullers I have onto the inner bearing races, as always the second side took a third of the time. The show stopper was the inner grease seals. It is half the thinness of a standard seal so is very fragile. I destroyed the seal on one side. Adding to the frustration, since the seal is half the thickness of a standard oil seal, it was not available from the on-line bearing/seal shops. I eventually found and ordered a pair from a classic car shop, hopefully a quick delivery.

I'll push on with the P6, I have until the close on Thursday to cancel the P6 MOT !!
 
Today is another holiday from work. This morning I assembled the Narrowed Jaguar IRS. Here are the results of the photo shoot.

And from the rear.


Luck is on my side in that the camber is very close to 1 deg on both wheels, this luck is down to the effort in shortening the driveshafts and the lower control arms in a repeatable and accurate way. If you look back you'll see the jig I made to achieve this. I'll get the thing fitted and measure again before shimming the drive shafts to alter the camber.

The hard points in the P6 are now looking like this:
Front -


Rear -


So I think I have my 'kit' ready and now to attach the two for the final time. :D

Gav.
 
DaveHerns said:
Why are your grease seals half normal thickness ? Is that half normal Jag thickness ?
Click to expand...

Hi,

My understanding from Gavin is that the standard Jag seals are half normal, off the shelf, get anywhere, seal thickness. He isn't using something non-Jag but he can correct me if I'm wrong, unfortunately I haven't been as close as I'd have liked to this exciting development.

Tim
 
Your correct Tim. The Jag standard seals are 0.218" thick (which is what I needed) whereas the standard oil seal available at any bearing shop is about twice this thickness. My problem here in Belfast is that all Jag stuff on the internet is 48hours away. However I found them at Leacy Classics who had them here in 48 hours.

More progress the whole lot is in.



Note the photo suggests the left hand side is dropping, it doesn't it's just the photo.


I thought it was all for nothing when I put the fuel tank back in and saw the routing for the handbrake cable. Until I thought of putting it down the passenger side of the car. You can see here the end of the cable pointing directly at the fuel tank attachments.
You can also see the how the brake hydaulics are routed. The end of my 'spares bin' flexi is visable just at the end of the 3/8 bold in the Jag T-peice. A flexi is not required here as the diff is solid mounted and the calipers are solid mounted on the diff but when picking things from the spares bin you can only use what's there.

I have Friday evening and all Saturday to finish it off for the MOT.

Gav.
P.S. What are you up to on Saturday Tim, fancy a day rolling around on the floor, under a P6? :LOL: :shock:
 
Just back from the MOT.
First the car drives great, it will benefit from some fettling with spring rates, damper settings and the addition of an Anti Roll Bar on the rear. The ride is very much like the De-dion it replaced.
Considering the diff and suspension is solid mounted it is much quieter than I was expecting, so quiet that I doubt anyone would comment on what noise there is. The motorsport usage improvements are as expected; no inner wheel spin coming out of tight corners. The drive to and from the MOT centre is about 35miles and pushing on over rolling country road the rear brakes no longer fade. Fun fun fun.....

Second, Europe has caught up with the MOT and to quote the MOT guy, “That maybe have been OK last year, but now I have to refer this on up to head office" So the car has neither pass or failed. The Rear Axle assembly is possibly an inappropriate modification.

I'm not going to rant hear, but have a few well-earned beers. I've satisfied myself that I've done a good job. I have already enjoyed driving it and feel that I've improved the car for motorsport usage.

Thanks to Tim for appearing for the last 4 hours of frantic pre-MOT preps, like making an exhaust.

Gavin.
P.s where is my ukip application form…..
 
The Rear Axle assembly is possibly an inappropriate modification.
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear this after all the work you have put in :cry: . Do you have any idea what is likely to happen next? Don't know too much about this kind of thing - could you be looking at an IVA test? :D Concentrating on the positive, it's very good news that she drives so well on first outing :D :D :D .
 
Oh dear. I've not heard of this happening before, so this is a new field for all of us.

I'm sure the FHBVC, of which the RP6C are a member organisation, will be extremely interested to help. And so, I should think, will anybody involved in the street rod scene or in the phat scene.

If it's any help, you have historical precedent for this mod on a road legal car in the shape of the factory racers JXC 806 D and JXC 808 D. One of these was fitted with a Jag rear end (I can never remember which one). I could put you in touch with the owner of 808, which I think is wearing it now - the identities swopped around between the two cars.

If nothing is resolved very quickly, then perhaps drop me a pm and we'll discuss how to proceed.

In the meantime I shall find a few tonnes of government regulations to read!

Chris
 
Hi,

Glad I was able to help out, my 4 hours at the end of the conversion may have been timely but it pales into insignificance against the time and effort you’ve put into this :oops:

The IVA test, if that’s the way it goes, is a minor setback, just slows things down a bit and cost some more hard earned money. At its core the legislation is designed to keep ill-conceived, poorly thought through, badly executed conversions off the road, which is a good thing but none of these words could be used to describe what you’ve achieved. Their time would, in my opinion, be better spent trying to get poorly modified (lowered mainly) modern heaps off the road, some of these “modified” Audi’s and VW that seem to populate our roads these days are little short of lethal.

Anyway it’s great to know that the conversion is a jump in the right direction and after some time fine tuning the set-up I’m sure it will be so much quicker. Unfortunately the excellent rear end of the car will only show up the vagueness of the front, what next in the big plan :shock:

A job well done :D

Tim
 
JVY, what next? The guys at the Newtownards centre have admitted to me they were following recent recommendations by referring the car to the main office, which is the Belfast centre. They did mention an IVA test, but they admitted they simply didn't know. The main office is to phone me within a week to advice what next. I hope they ask to see the car in Belfast (so I can legally drive it again even for 4 miles this time). I'll take a printed short presentation of what I've done and why i.e the standard Rover diff mounts were breaking and the rear brakes are non-existent after a few miles of hard driving, remember this is done legally on open roads under motorsport regulations. So I'll wait.....

Chris, Any help is more than appreciated. As for the period cars, it was pointed out to me that since last year things have changed at the MOT. I hope that the rules only apply to new mods not old mods. As Tim pointed out to me it could have been better if I had driven through a farmyard before the test to get an even deposit of cow shit over the new and old parts.
If you can give me contacts for any pressure groups that would be great, this is the help I need.

I’m going to contact the Motor Sports Association, as this must be a problem for most modified competing cars.

I’m trying to think how the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) maybe structured. Lets say testers are trained to test standard cars. They test ball joints, bearing, airbag lights etc. A highly modified car is outside of their training and therefore their responsibility is to refer the car to main office. I’m trying not to look to far ahead to what may happen but take it as it comes and prepare myself to present the car as a solution to a documented problem. I think they are more concerned about the fitment of an axle designed for a lower loading and that the modifications I’ve made to the structure of the shell are safe modifications. As the axle is from a Jag XLS, which I’m assuming is heavier than the P6; I think the axle should be OK. The narrowing of the axle has been done in a correct manner, but this I’ll need to show. As for the modifications to the shell I think this maybe the most difficult part. I may ask a few questions here.

What annoys me is that the word "Inappropriate" is a subjective word. Subjective means it can be interpreted differently by other people; as opposed to "Objective". This is not a word I would be allowed to use in my work as an Aero Engine Controls Engineer. It means nothing and yet can mean anything. I had read the MOT requirements before I started fitting the Jag IRS and I never thought it was not 'inappropriate'. I still think it is 'appropriate', as we have proved the standard Rover diff mounts are 'inappropriate' as they keep breaking. What I have done is non-standard, but that does not equate to inappropriate.

See photo bellow. I’ve bolted a plate the end of the prop-shaft tunnel and attached my radius arms on this plate. Is this were the non-V8 cars bolted the diff noise mounts?

Also, if you can point me to documentation of –
1. Breakages of the diff mounting plate
2. Breakages of the diff casting nose
3. Rear brakes badly fading
I can use this as evidence to show the standard fittings are not sufficient for motor sport. (if you have not read all this thread, do not think these are problems with the P6 in everyday driving as it is a great car with a fantastic rear suspension, it’s just when pushed on, like most 70’s cars, things could be better)

Sorry for the rant in middle, but I didn't get a lot of sleep last night and I had only one beer.

gav
 
Just to let you all know I've talked to the person at the top of the NI MOT. He was knowledgeable of both (P6 Jag) suspensions and asked how I had gone about some of the modifications, he seemed happy with my answers. He thinks if I have done the conversion correctly then it should pass a MOT. I'm to return to the MOT centre that has been told the same. :D
This seems (so far) a case of new regulations causing confusion.

During the chat with the 'man at the MOT', he informed me that they (the DVA) expect and should accept non-original parts on older cars. He said to me they are aware that some parts for older cars cannot be got and that owners can modify the car to use parts from other cars. :)

I have found out that the IVA test is not for old cars, it is for car younger than 10 years and requiring first registration E.g. imported cars, Kit cars.

Gavin.
 
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