Cylinder head - To seal or replace

S

skilly

New Member
Hi Guys

Just as I've sorted out the fueling problem I had, another problem has developed. The car started to overheat on my way to work yesterday, when I lifted the bonnet I could see steam and water bubbling (sometimes a fine jet of water was squirting out) from the cylinder head just above the top of the engine side plate I assume it the gasket thats gone. The car only has to tick over from cold for 5 mins or so for this to happen again there doesn't seem to be any other water leaks. The water level in the radiator obviously drops but it seems to drop more than is visibly being lost. Also even though the temp gauge is reading very hot when you put on the heating in the car it's just cold air is this normal characteristics when the cylinder head is leaking.

I have been told by a friend that to replace the head gasket will probably cost £270 approx plus the gasket price. But I have come accross Steel Seal on the Internet and it promises to seal such leaks, it costs £30. Has anybody used this and does it work or am I throwing good money after bad. It's just I would have to sell the wife to pay for the head gasket job and I've grown quite attached to her after 20 years. So if the steel seal works I'd rather try that. If not then One wife for sale only one careful owner since new,low mileage, regularly serviced and full MOT

Cheers

Paul
 
I've used those types of sealers to seal cracked or porous blocks, but I wouldn't try to cure a head gasket leak with them. Bit the bullet, sell the wife (or just lease her out for a while) and pull the head off if you're sure that's the problem, (and it does sound like it)
Once the head is off you may find the water ways have enlarged through corrosion.

That labour price seems a bit steep to me ISTR the book time was less than 5 hours, so even allowing for some problems you SHOULD get away with 6 at the most. Depends on what happens when you remove it though.
 
I'm sure Auntie Madge will be pleased to hear your wife has been regularly serviced ...........

I know someone who tried Devcon for a similar problem - it doesn't last long due to expansion and contraction

Are you sure it's not the side plate or gasket leaking ?
 
Change the head gasket every time, you'll only end up damaging if not. If the gasket has gone then I would expect that now the torque settings of the head bolts will be wrong so could run the risk of warping the head.

£270 if paying someone to do it sounds a bit steep but could be right, do it your self and it'll be £10!!! eBay head gasket I've brought two from these guys. One when I fixed a bad valve and one when I rebuilt the engine. Both were very good quality.

Shame you don't live on the Island, I would come over and help you out. Its an easy job, only special tool is a torque wrench.

I could do one in about an hour and a half, but then I've had good practice lately. ;)
 
The engine side plates look in good condition. How can you distinguish if it's the head gasket or engine side plate gasket?. These areas are very close together.

Paul
 
thanks for the info Richard. Gasket for £6 plus p&p looks a bargin especially if you have used them and can vouch for their quality.

I did contemplate doing the job my self however on reading the haynes manual it looked a bit tricky especially as it mentions the removal of the cam shaft etc.

if there are any other offers out there to give me a hand to do it myself and you live in the Glasgow area then I would be delighted to hear from you.

Paul
 
Sorry forgot to ask. Will the cylinder head gasket on its own be sufficient or will I need a full gasket set.

Paul
 
I must say I'd be inclined to treat the side plates as consummables. Nor are they very expensive. Try allrovers on Ebay for a set. If he isn't actually advertising any then just go to his member profile and send him an e mail.

ChrisWith the head and all the manifolding off they are very easy to change. Much less so if they go subsequently!

Chris
 
skilly said:
Sorry forgot to ask. Will the cylinder head gasket on its own be sufficient or will I need a full gasket set.

Paul
Click to expand...
I wouldn't get a full head set, but the minimum you will need are the head gasket and oilway "O" ring, camcover gasket, 3 rubbers and copper washers, and the gasket for the tensioner access plate.

If you don't peg up the camshaft correctly, and do the head bolts in the right order (which is not necessarily the order in the book) it's possible so snap the camshaft in two.
 
chrisyork said:
I must say I'd be inclined to treat the side plates as consummables. Nor are they very expensive. Try allrovers on Ebay for a set. If he isn't actually advertising any then just go to his member profile and send him an e mail.

ChrisWith the head and all the manifolding off they are very easy to change. Much less so if they go subsequently!

Chris
Click to expand...
Going by the experience I had with my engine I would only do the side plates if they are leaking. I don't know how you can tell if the leak is very close. I would say they are harder than doing the head as the bolts behind the oil pump are a pain to get to. As my engine was dismantled I put them on first. But the thing to watch out for if you do change them is the bolts. All of mine had become very week after 35 years being attached to the engine. Getting replacements is not hard but does need some searching as not everyone can do 1/4 UNC 1/2 long bolts. The lower ones have to be this length as the bolt hole does not enter the water jacket so a longer bolt will not go all the way in. If you see what I mean.

Apart from the warning from Harvey I think these heads are one of the easier heads on a car I've removed. Don't worry about removing the cam, sounds worst than it really is. Just take that easy as the pots that sit over the valves can say in the cam holder and then drop out once your clear, not good. So as you lift it give them a tap so they stay behind.

You'll need a 11/16th 1/2 drive socket for the head bolts and a 5/8ths 1/2 drive socket for the front two bolts that hold in front bearing. These need torquing as well as the head, hence the 1/2 drive for the torque wrench.

I don't know what you've done on cars before but if you've done a clutch on a car before then this will be within your skill level.

You don't need a full set, depending on the state of the rocker cover gasket. The head only set comes with the O ring that goes on the back for the oil way there.

Be careful when you pop off the cover that will give you access to the chain tensioner as these can be a little brittle.

If you have a spare pair of hands get them to help to lift it of, they are heavy with the exhaust manifold still attached, which I would recommend. Gives something good to get hold off.

Also make sure you keep the chain tensioner secured. Don't want it falling into the sump, although I think that's unlightly. But sods law would say it would.

Whilst the head of worth while checking the rear inspection plate. Mine started to leek soon after I replaced the head the first time. Typical. Can be done with the head on but you loose some knuckle skin.
 
test

Very, Very strange, this topic had disappeared but by adding this new post it came back ! ???



Edited By webmaster on 1200405030
 
I have taken all the advice on board and rather than use the magic potion to try and fix head gasket i'm just going ahead and getting it replaced. I gave the guys at classic gaskets whom Richard recommended, they seemed very nice and helpful so I just ordered a full head gasket set, unfortunately you could only order the head gasket on it's own or the full set, so I thought it best to order the full one especially as there might be one or two other gaskets needing replaced once I start taking things off.

So D Day is Weds hopefully everything will go as planed, the only spanner might be that the head might need re skimming, from experience does anybody know if this will be more than likely?. Also apart from the inspection plate is it worth replacing/renewing anything else when the head is off. I might be havering but I was thinking valve stem oil seals etc or is this in a completely different area.

Thanks for all the help and replies so far

Paul
 
Assuming the engine hasn't been badly overheated, you can probably get away with just cleaning up the head surface and refitting. However, getting it skimmed wouldn't cost too much, friend of mine was quoted £20 today for skimming.

Valve stem seals will be in the full gasket set, definately worth replacing while you're at it, along with lapping the valves (small tin of grinding paste and the stick with the 2 suckers on the end) to make sure the valves are sealing properly. Easy to do if a little time consuming.

Having said that, too much lapping will leave you needing to re-shim the tappets, so I would be very carefull, somebody else might have a recommendation on this one.



Edited By webmaster on 1200435806
 
Its always handy to have spare gasket but from memory the only other gaskets that may need replacing is the rocker cover and the one at the back of the cam holder. Which reminds me, there is a plate at the back of the cam carrier that allows the oil feed from the head enter the crank shaft. Take this of first before undoing the head. But obviously put it on last after torquing the head down. And don't forget it or you'll have no oil pressure. ;)

As things to check, check the rear inspection plate. Don't take it off else you'll use up the gasket for it.

Can't remember if you said yours was a TC or SC. But for my SC engine I left all the carb and exhaust manifold on. Don't know if its an issue on the TC heads, don't look like it. Saves more bolts to undo.

Check the valves for cracks and clean up. I would not bother lapping back in as you'll remove the protective lead and other stuff that's taken 30 odd years to build up. ;) If you've got a valve spring compressor then well worth whipping them off to do the valve steam oil seals. But I wouldn't loose sleep over it if you don't. Personally I would just change the gasket an and be done with it. Any more and you may as well refurb the whole head. If it needs a skim then you may as well spend a day lapping in the valves as they need to come of for the skim.

I don't know if these heads warp or not, when I was a mechanic we would always skim ally heads. But then we did not need to use the car and could wait the day or so for it to be in the shop. Also we were being paid for doing it.

All depends on how long the car can be of the road and how hot it got. Sounds like it was not leaking that much. Normally if they warp you get water in one of the cylinders or the water system becomes over pressurised. Once went to check a head gasket on a SD1 2600. We ran it up the road and it over heated, took the rad cap of and blew the thing in to the air, went like a rocket. Nearly took my head off!
 
Just to add my thoughts on this.

Have you confirmed that the head is leaking and it is not a side plate gasket?

I had a 2000 engine fitted to my car a few years back. It was overheating and there was bubbling and frothing in the radiator. I was replacing this engine anyway but I stripped it down for a buzz. the water jacket was half clogged up with silt.

I would say that if the head comes off change the plates since you will have the access and it is always worthwhile. I wrote a piece for the p6 news a few issues back.

The HG is not too bad to replace just make sure you get the "o" ring.

Richard, I assume that the £20 skim would be for a fully stripped head? if they have to do it they charge you for the privilage.

Colin

91990516ea0f3547c8a79929156df1d2bf43a6f9b49ed6c75a181b7e.jpg

after cleaning bottom 1-2inches was solid gunk.

206565995a63f80558a347dbf519f78e1f7e1ed880f626a973158d0a.jpg

new and old. The side plates are highly likely to leak due to corrosion
 
arthuy said:
Just to add my thoughts on this.

Have you confirmed that the head is leaking and it is not a side plate gasket?

I had a 2000 engine fitted to my car a few years back. It was overheating and there was bubbling and frothing in the radiator. I was replacing this engine anyway but I stripped it down for a buzz. the water jacket was half clogged up with silt.

I would say that if the head comes off change the plates since you will have the access and it is always worthwhile. I wrote a piece for the p6 news a few issues back.


Colin

corrosion
Click to expand...
Just a little note on the side plates. The offside one, the one shown in your picture is going to be a little awkward with the oil pump in place. And you don't want to start stripping that off.

I would only do them if I could see that they were leaking.

Maybe some one who's done one in situ can correct me on what its like.

I had to replace one of mine when I rebuild the engine. One had been done and was still in very good nick. The other looked good but once I rubbed it a bit on the inside with a wire brush it just fell apart. Don't know what type of metal it is but its pants.

Once the head is off its should be obvious if its was the head or not. All ways worth well while doing the head gasket if the car has over headed a few times. So even it turns out to be a side plate its still a good job done.

If you do the side plates I would also recommend replacing all the bolts, only £18 from A2A4 fixings. They are 1/4 x 1/2 UNC, need about 50 of them, not easy to get hold off. Most on eBay are too long. The ones on my old block had gone all soft and week. Also clean out the threads.

P.s. don't forget, pictures while doing it, we all like to see. :D

engine_block_2.jpg
 
I've never removed the oil pump to do the sideplate, and although access to those bolts is restricted a bit, I've never had any problems.

The sideplate in the picture looks to be a non original (pattern) part, so it will be interesting to see how it lasts in the long term.
 
harveyp6 said:
I've never removed the oil pump to do the sideplate, and although access to those bolts is restricted a bit, I've never had any problems.

The sideplate in the picture looks to be a non original (pattern) part, so it will be interesting to see how it lasts in the long term.
Click to expand...
There you go, I stand corrected by the oracle that is Harvey. :) Was hoping you were going to put me straight if I were wrong. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top