fuel additive
- Thread starter biffa01
- Start date
Pilkie
Active Member
Re: fule additive
Hi biffa01
Contrary to what some dealers might say,the V8 engine is fully capable of running on unleaded without the need for additives!
You may have to very slightly adjust the timing.
I have been running mine for over 5 yrs with no noticable effects and its my daily driver!
As they are built from ally,they already have hardened valve seats,and they are a really robust engine that can go on for ever even when badly maintained!!
My grandad had an early V8, "1969" and all he used to do was bung in,fuel, oil and water when the level went down,fit an oil and air filter once a year,and wash it when grandma complained it was too dirty!
It always went through its mot,with occasional new exhaust and tyres.
He must of clocked up well over 200.000 miles in the 20 yrs he had it,till a lorry killed it while it was parked up!
Hi biffa01
Contrary to what some dealers might say,the V8 engine is fully capable of running on unleaded without the need for additives!
You may have to very slightly adjust the timing.
I have been running mine for over 5 yrs with no noticable effects and its my daily driver!
As they are built from ally,they already have hardened valve seats,and they are a really robust engine that can go on for ever even when badly maintained!!
My grandad had an early V8, "1969" and all he used to do was bung in,fuel, oil and water when the level went down,fit an oil and air filter once a year,and wash it when grandma complained it was too dirty!
It always went through its mot,with occasional new exhaust and tyres.
He must of clocked up well over 200.000 miles in the 20 yrs he had it,till a lorry killed it while it was parked up!
Only minor addition to that is that if yours is a '73 S it probably has the 10.5:1 engine. This definitely needs the ignition retarding - the issue being pinking due to lack of 5 star rather than damage to valves due to lack of lead. There are some aditives around to add to 97 octane to boost it to 5 star standard - octane boosters - but I'm always a bit wary of such "tricks". Anybody on here have any expeience of them?
Chris
Chris
TwinPlenum3500S
New Member
This is a seasoned debate ... I believe 1973 was the changeover. Earlier cars up to 1972 and some 1973 (depending what was left in the factory) were 10.5:1. I am of a belief that these are bad news ... designed to run on 5 star and pink if not retarded. Some people fit composite head gaskets to reduce compression by 0.5 - 0.7 (from memory), but with inevitable loss of performance.
I suggest you check your engine to check its compresion ration. If is not 10.5:1, these run fine on normal unleaded. 10.5:1 cars may pink and have to be retarded. HOWEVER ... many people run these earlier units and claim to fill them on cheap grade supemarket fuel blah blah blah and they are as good as gold for years. Others fit unleaded SD1 cylinder heads and run the 10.5 with no problems using an additive.
I pulled my hair out over this with my V8 for months .... keep original lump and rebuild, or just fit a later engine (Mine was a 1972 S lump and 10.5:1). In the death I put an SD1 injected lump in mine .... injected, electronic ignition, unleaded and 190 bhp, as well as no rope seal which when it goes will ruin your drive and need the lump out to replace. In essence a late SD1 I believed would make my P6 practical for daily use and more power.
If I were you and you have a 10.5:1 lump, put unleaded heads on, retard it, use a petrol addititive (castrol valvemaster etc) and see how you go.
Later you could use composite headgaskets to lower compression and a mild road cam to pep it back up again. But, then you start spending money and the V8 is not cheap to enhance..... hence why an engine swap can be cheaper.
In saing all this if yours is not an early 10.5:1, youve had a result
I suggest you check your engine to check its compresion ration. If is not 10.5:1, these run fine on normal unleaded. 10.5:1 cars may pink and have to be retarded. HOWEVER ... many people run these earlier units and claim to fill them on cheap grade supemarket fuel blah blah blah and they are as good as gold for years. Others fit unleaded SD1 cylinder heads and run the 10.5 with no problems using an additive.
I pulled my hair out over this with my V8 for months .... keep original lump and rebuild, or just fit a later engine (Mine was a 1972 S lump and 10.5:1). In the death I put an SD1 injected lump in mine .... injected, electronic ignition, unleaded and 190 bhp, as well as no rope seal which when it goes will ruin your drive and need the lump out to replace. In essence a late SD1 I believed would make my P6 practical for daily use and more power.
If I were you and you have a 10.5:1 lump, put unleaded heads on, retard it, use a petrol addititive (castrol valvemaster etc) and see how you go.
Later you could use composite headgaskets to lower compression and a mild road cam to pep it back up again. But, then you start spending money and the V8 is not cheap to enhance..... hence why an engine swap can be cheaper.
In saing all this if yours is not an early 10.5:1, youve had a result
Brian-Northampton
Administrator
If you're running 10.5:1, then the best additive to use is TetraBoost - It'll turn your unleaded fuel into old fashioned leaded petrol - and it is endorsed by the FBHVC (Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs). Being real lead, it will not only provide the proper 'additive' but lead also boosts your Octane by as much as you want (depending on how much you add), so you can run your old girl on 5 star petrol (100 RON) without retarding.
All depends on how many miles you do, I do a thousand or so each year and so doesn't add much to the fuel bill, if she's your daily driver, then it might cost you a packet..... You have to buy quite a bit at a time, but it does have a reasonable shelf life - better still if you can find someone to share a box with :wink:
Here's the website http://tetraboost.com/
Cheers,
Brian.
All depends on how many miles you do, I do a thousand or so each year and so doesn't add much to the fuel bill, if she's your daily driver, then it might cost you a packet..... You have to buy quite a bit at a time, but it does have a reasonable shelf life - better still if you can find someone to share a box with :wink:
Here's the website http://tetraboost.com/
Cheers,
Brian.
Pilkie
Active Member
If as an owner, "whoever it may be",you want to go to all the expense and hassle of fitting SD1 heads,composite head gaskets, additives,fuel injection,efi,ecu's ,etc, etc!! then go for it,its your car!!
If you have a std p6v8 whatever year it is,and it is running fine,then there is no earthly reason why you need to go to these measures!!
Owners of rover V8 powered cars,whatever the marque, have been running with u/l since it came out with maybe just a bit of retarding the timing if pinking occurs!!
The one problem did occur when this LRP crap was brought out!! It cause lots of problems and was thankfully got rid of eventually!!
All the cars I have had,and thats quite a few!!! since I passed my test in 77, have run happily on u/l with a small timing adjustment!! Even my 1971 XJ6 4.2L Jag was happy!!
I started my working career in petrol stations in 76,and worked up to be an area manager so I know what the fuel was like,and the sort of crap that was being banded about by major car dealers saying your cars head needs major expensive surgery! when it wasnt required! It was scaremongering for profit!!
I also was a mobile mechanic for about 8 yrs in the 80/90's!!
Granted some makes did need hardened valve seats and guides fitted,but almost all engines with ally heads already had them fitted!!
Also helps that lead memory will last for ages in our cars,as most only do limited mileages!!
Basically if it aint broke,leave it alone and enjoy it!!
If you have a std p6v8 whatever year it is,and it is running fine,then there is no earthly reason why you need to go to these measures!!
Owners of rover V8 powered cars,whatever the marque, have been running with u/l since it came out with maybe just a bit of retarding the timing if pinking occurs!!
The one problem did occur when this LRP crap was brought out!! It cause lots of problems and was thankfully got rid of eventually!!
All the cars I have had,and thats quite a few!!! since I passed my test in 77, have run happily on u/l with a small timing adjustment!! Even my 1971 XJ6 4.2L Jag was happy!!
I started my working career in petrol stations in 76,and worked up to be an area manager so I know what the fuel was like,and the sort of crap that was being banded about by major car dealers saying your cars head needs major expensive surgery! when it wasnt required! It was scaremongering for profit!!
I also was a mobile mechanic for about 8 yrs in the 80/90's!!
Granted some makes did need hardened valve seats and guides fitted,but almost all engines with ally heads already had them fitted!!
Also helps that lead memory will last for ages in our cars,as most only do limited mileages!!
Basically if it aint broke,leave it alone and enjoy it!!
My 1974 P6B had as orginal a 10.5 : 1 CR engine. Timing was set to 0 degrees BTDC. It still pinged. Every P6B that I have driven locally with the same CR engine has pinged, some worse than others.
I did use an octane booster on occassions, and it did indeed stop the pinging.
When leaded fuel was deleted and LRP introduced I used this fuel as it was without additives. LRP in Australia was in the order of 95 octane.
When LRP was deleted, I changed over to unleaded, using Shell or BP 98 octane fuels. I used an additive in each tank fill designed to stop valve seat recession. I did this as the information available from Land Rover, fuel companies and Rover V8 texts was not consistant.
Now that I have a 4.6 litre engine, running an 8.37 : 1 CR, I have no such concerns. The engine does not ping, has vastly more power and torque, and better fuel economy into the bargin.
Ron.
I did use an octane booster on occassions, and it did indeed stop the pinging.
When leaded fuel was deleted and LRP introduced I used this fuel as it was without additives. LRP in Australia was in the order of 95 octane.
When LRP was deleted, I changed over to unleaded, using Shell or BP 98 octane fuels. I used an additive in each tank fill designed to stop valve seat recession. I did this as the information available from Land Rover, fuel companies and Rover V8 texts was not consistant.
Now that I have a 4.6 litre engine, running an 8.37 : 1 CR, I have no such concerns. The engine does not ping, has vastly more power and torque, and better fuel economy into the bargin.
Ron.
Demetris
Well-Known Member
100 octane unleaded is readily available over here. A bit pricey in BP and Shell brands, but affordable in other brands. With the latest drop in fuel prices we can often get it below 90 cents per litre.
My replacement TC engine is 10:1, and while it would ping with the 95 octane unleaded, it runs just fine with the 100 octane, keeping the factory recommended ignition adjustments.
My replacement TC engine is 10:1, and while it would ping with the 95 octane unleaded, it runs just fine with the 100 octane, keeping the factory recommended ignition adjustments.
campingstoveman
New Member
Gentlemen,
I run my Series 1 3.5 P6, which is 10.5:1, with high octane unleaded and Castrol octane booster, the timing as per the book and I dont have any pinking problems.
Martin P
I run my Series 1 3.5 P6, which is 10.5:1, with high octane unleaded and Castrol octane booster, the timing as per the book and I dont have any pinking problems.
Martin P
Phil Robson
Well-Known Member
This is a perennial subject, but to offer my own observations on 10.5:1 engines:
My previous '71 'S' ran for around 30,000 miles with neat normal unleaded without issue. It was retarded a bit, but still went very well.
My current '70 3500 series 1 was always pinking under load, but since a thorough service & retiming at TDC for 96 octane (97?) as per the manual, it does not pink at all & goes like a train. Kicks down properly, too! I do not use an additive & don't intend to.
Phil.
My previous '71 'S' ran for around 30,000 miles with neat normal unleaded without issue. It was retarded a bit, but still went very well.
My current '70 3500 series 1 was always pinking under load, but since a thorough service & retiming at TDC for 96 octane (97?) as per the manual, it does not pink at all & goes like a train. Kicks down properly, too! I do not use an additive & don't intend to.
Phil.
DaveHerns said:
It is my understanding Dave that vacuum advance as it is configured on the P6B only comes into play during times of high manifold vacuum, such as during light throttle applications,...ie... motorway cruising or gentle city driving. There is no performance advantage from vacuum advance, only an improvement in fuel economy.
During hard acceleration when pinging is most likely, manifold vacuum is very low, thus little if any advance from vacuum occurs. Advance on these occassions is essentially purely mechanical.
Ron.
DaveHerns said:
Tired mechanical advance springs just as springs which are too light for the application will contribute to pinging, The weight of the primary and secondary springs effect the rate of advance, while total advance in a Lucas 35D8 distributor, as originally fitted to the P6B, is set at manufacture and will not change with age. It can however be changed to bring forward the point when full advance will be reached to suit a custom application, just as the springs can also be changed.
Ron.
TwinPlenum3500S
New Member
Pilkie, 3500 states specifically that they run on 5 star. Modern unleaded runs hotter, is dirty and is not suited to the old 10.5:1 compression lump. An efi equates to hard work; sourcing a good one, fitting, finding new places for bits under the bonnet, running new fuel lines / fuel pump, swapping about slave cylinders, fitting swirl pots, new manifolds, wiring, ecus, swapping over front covers, guage problems blah blah blah. BUT I am pleased I have done it. I have injection, electronic ignition, 190 brake, that I can fill up at any petrol station all over the country. No super unleaded, no additive, no pinking, no carbs, points, lumpy running when you floor it!! I will drive 1000 miles a month @ 18 to the gallon ( i hope) = 56 gallons (252 litres). Additive is 8p per litre, so £20 a month in additive alone, net alone petrol, plus an old carb engine.
Its all down to what you do with your car, how often its used, your budget etc. Above all its personal choice. A 3500S used for 2000 miles a year on sundays and sunny days, then suck it and see, leave it, retard it etc. If you want a modern car in an old shell, then efi is the way forward. If a smashed up Range Rover 3.9 came my way, then I know what i'd do with that too.
By saying a 10.5:1 on unleaded run a dream is incorrect. You can get it to run, but it will never be a good engine. RPi engineering are a mine of info on this problem and will confirm what I am saying. Later, lower compression engines, were better and tailored for export markets where fuel was lower octane hence all unleaded friendly (USA). British 10.5:1's are not really a good engine to have. But again its up to the owner. I would not advocate ripping engines out of Mk2 Jags and putting in modern Jag engines, or Cooper lumps and putting in metros! But then again, I am not using these as daily wheels.
Its all down to what you do with your car, how often its used, your budget etc. Above all its personal choice. A 3500S used for 2000 miles a year on sundays and sunny days, then suck it and see, leave it, retard it etc. If you want a modern car in an old shell, then efi is the way forward. If a smashed up Range Rover 3.9 came my way, then I know what i'd do with that too.
By saying a 10.5:1 on unleaded run a dream is incorrect. You can get it to run, but it will never be a good engine. RPi engineering are a mine of info on this problem and will confirm what I am saying. Later, lower compression engines, were better and tailored for export markets where fuel was lower octane hence all unleaded friendly (USA). British 10.5:1's are not really a good engine to have. But again its up to the owner. I would not advocate ripping engines out of Mk2 Jags and putting in modern Jag engines, or Cooper lumps and putting in metros! But then again, I am not using these as daily wheels.
Pilkie
Active Member
As you say,and if you want to go to ALL that trouble!!
You can do whatever you like to your own car!!
Yours sound like a lot of hassle for little reward and a technical nightmare!! :roll:
But I do admire the technical acheivement,well done you!!
At least I dont have a computer or black box under the bonnet that needs a PC to map it and tell me whats wrong with it!
There is something to be said for basics,not as much to go wrong,and dead easy to diagnose and fix "almost by the roadside" if it does!!
A good basic spares kit and the right tools in the box will get me going 9 out of 10 times!!
My eyes,ears,nose and experience can diagnose problems for free!!
And a good servicing regime pays dividends!!
I prefer to keep things original and have had no problems at all,except with LRP in my Dolly Sprint,as soon as I put normal U/L back in,it drove perfect!!
I used my Sprint for 11yrs and 16000m a year,no hassle,and have used the rover for the best part of 7 yrs and done over 40000m,on std U/L with no hassles!! I normally get 25 on a run,and 20 around town,and it runs very smooth,no lumpy running!!
I dont need to get 0-60 in a quick time,or have ANY reason to do over 70mph!!
You obviously have had a bad experience with a V8,and couldn't solve the problem!
I think its best we agree to disagree on this matter,and let others decide for themselves what is best for them!!
If somewone wants modern electronics,fuel systems etc,then they buy a modern car!!
You can do whatever you like to your own car!!
Yours sound like a lot of hassle for little reward and a technical nightmare!! :roll:
But I do admire the technical acheivement,well done you!!
At least I dont have a computer or black box under the bonnet that needs a PC to map it and tell me whats wrong with it!
There is something to be said for basics,not as much to go wrong,and dead easy to diagnose and fix "almost by the roadside" if it does!!
A good basic spares kit and the right tools in the box will get me going 9 out of 10 times!!
My eyes,ears,nose and experience can diagnose problems for free!!
And a good servicing regime pays dividends!!
I prefer to keep things original and have had no problems at all,except with LRP in my Dolly Sprint,as soon as I put normal U/L back in,it drove perfect!!
I used my Sprint for 11yrs and 16000m a year,no hassle,and have used the rover for the best part of 7 yrs and done over 40000m,on std U/L with no hassles!! I normally get 25 on a run,and 20 around town,and it runs very smooth,no lumpy running!!
I dont need to get 0-60 in a quick time,or have ANY reason to do over 70mph!!
You obviously have had a bad experience with a V8,and couldn't solve the problem!
I think its best we agree to disagree on this matter,and let others decide for themselves what is best for them!!
If somewone wants modern electronics,fuel systems etc,then they buy a modern car!!
My main reason for coming back to buying another P6 is the problems I was experiencing with a moderrn, computer controlled car.
I yearned for the old days when I could fix my car myself with not much more than a 1/2" and 9/16" spanner and a couple of screwdrivers.
I have an oil leak on my Audi and am told that I need a new seal on the camshaft adjuster. I have been quoted £2K :shock:
I need a new set of discs on the rear - doing this myself when my garage is finished.
Cam belt change £600+
I had a pipe split on the secondary air system. It took 8 trips to the garage (Specialist Audi garage), over £1,1000.00, and a big argument with the morons running the place it get it sorted.
My P6 is not standard, but it is a Rover V8, it does have a carb, and no computers.
Bliss 8)
I yearned for the old days when I could fix my car myself with not much more than a 1/2" and 9/16" spanner and a couple of screwdrivers.
I have an oil leak on my Audi and am told that I need a new seal on the camshaft adjuster. I have been quoted £2K :shock:
I need a new set of discs on the rear - doing this myself when my garage is finished.
Cam belt change £600+
I had a pipe split on the secondary air system. It took 8 trips to the garage (Specialist Audi garage), over £1,1000.00, and a big argument with the morons running the place it get it sorted.
My P6 is not standard, but it is a Rover V8, it does have a carb, and no computers.
Bliss 8)
Brian-Northampton
Administrator
My Audi has just been into the garage to have the cabin heater blower fan fixed.....it had become as useless as an asthmatic blowing through a straw!....... and to fix it means installing a new controller board (aren't computers wonderful!). So by the time today's modern cars become "classics", you wont need a couple of screwdrivers and spanners, you'll need a soldering iron!!
TwinPlenum3500S
New Member
Indeed Pilkie. If it aint broke dont fix it. I also believe in keeping things original. In this case I had a 10.5:1 lump, needing a cam shaft, carb rebuild ec. It had reached a point where it needed getting at. So I just went the efi route as a twin plenum sd1 at reasonable money made good driving sense. Used the engine and 5 speed box and broke the rest up. Engine stands in very reasonable money.
I just sold a 1973 3500S on the L, with the slightly lower compression lump, which had been retarded for standard unleaded + valvemaster. This drove really well until you nailed it. In fact it hated super unleaded, prefering std u/l. My Dolly Sprint hated unleaded more than any car I have driven, It got sold about 2 years ago now, but I was lucky to have a pertol station that still did leaded 4 star, which it liked. I have had eary Minis that burn out on unleaded ... as a matter of course I go and buy 2 cannisters of 4 star before attempting to start any old mini resto that has been laid up for many years. My Cooper is 5 star and hates u/l, as with my Dolly, all journeys are calculated with getting back to the 4 star station in mind. If a car runs OK on it, then fine. If your car runs sick on unleaded, pinks, has pre-ignition because of the filthy u/l, does valve seats and head gaskets as the u/l burns so hot, then you have trouble. Quite simply you are either lucky or unlucky. If your car hates it, then you need to have a plan. Loads of P6's have SD1 heads fitted, many A series engines have u/l heads, some have had valve seats hardened. To mindlessly say old cars run happily on u/l is simply not true. Some can run OK, some have trouble, but none of them will perform like they did when they guzzled 5 star leaded back in 1972!
As for having a brain in the car now, you are right, time will tell (ps its in the passengers footwell, cut into that honeycomb foot rest thingy whatsit ). I have read articles from the SD1 circles and it can be a pain in the neck. Again, it is down to luck and I will have to see what happens. But again, points are a nightmare, crap aftermarket condensers, old carbs going out of tune, pinking, dripping rope seals. Its 6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of another. One good thing is, although we disagree, we both are out there bustling past Clios, BMW,s and all tht Euro tosh in a P6. Any presence on the road is a good thing for the marque .... however a more modern engine can mean a car becomes more driveable, will start every morning in the cold, runs more efficiently, plus an addition 50 bhp is not to be sneezed at, as well as a 5 speed box on the motorway.
I just sold a 1973 3500S on the L, with the slightly lower compression lump, which had been retarded for standard unleaded + valvemaster. This drove really well until you nailed it. In fact it hated super unleaded, prefering std u/l. My Dolly Sprint hated unleaded more than any car I have driven, It got sold about 2 years ago now, but I was lucky to have a pertol station that still did leaded 4 star, which it liked. I have had eary Minis that burn out on unleaded ... as a matter of course I go and buy 2 cannisters of 4 star before attempting to start any old mini resto that has been laid up for many years. My Cooper is 5 star and hates u/l, as with my Dolly, all journeys are calculated with getting back to the 4 star station in mind. If a car runs OK on it, then fine. If your car runs sick on unleaded, pinks, has pre-ignition because of the filthy u/l, does valve seats and head gaskets as the u/l burns so hot, then you have trouble. Quite simply you are either lucky or unlucky. If your car hates it, then you need to have a plan. Loads of P6's have SD1 heads fitted, many A series engines have u/l heads, some have had valve seats hardened. To mindlessly say old cars run happily on u/l is simply not true. Some can run OK, some have trouble, but none of them will perform like they did when they guzzled 5 star leaded back in 1972!
As for having a brain in the car now, you are right, time will tell (ps its in the passengers footwell, cut into that honeycomb foot rest thingy whatsit
). I have read articles from the SD1 circles and it can be a pain in the neck. Again, it is down to luck and I will have to see what happens. But again, points are a nightmare, crap aftermarket condensers, old carbs going out of tune, pinking, dripping rope seals. Its 6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of another. One good thing is, although we disagree, we both are out there bustling past Clios, BMW,s and all tht Euro tosh in a P6. Any presence on the road is a good thing for the marque .... however a more modern engine can mean a car becomes more driveable, will start every morning in the cold, runs more efficiently, plus an addition 50 bhp is not to be sneezed at, as well as a 5 speed box on the motorway.