ZF 4HP22
- Thread starter Geordie Jim
- Start date
WarrenL
Active Member
Hmm, this is all getting rather interesting, being a gearbox virgin. I think I'm going to be crossing a few bridges as I come to them. Not to worry.
I started the project gently today, by manoeuvring the car up onto axle stands, with the front wheels and tyres (along with a couple of wood blocks) shoved under the front cross-member for added security. After that I crawled underneath and took some measurements, prodded at the gearbox mounts, and pondered life, the universe and gearboxes. Then I gave up for the day and shuffled off for a nap.
I started the project gently today, by manoeuvring the car up onto axle stands, with the front wheels and tyres (along with a couple of wood blocks) shoved under the front cross-member for added security. After that I crawled underneath and took some measurements, prodded at the gearbox mounts, and pondered life, the universe and gearboxes. Then I gave up for the day and shuffled off for a nap.
WarrenL
Active Member
Here's an old but informative thread concerning the P5B and ZF:
http://roverp5.proboards.com/thread/2003
I'm intending to drop out my BW35 tomorrow, so the process is beginning in earnest.
http://roverp5.proboards.com/thread/2003
I'm intending to drop out my BW35 tomorrow, so the process is beginning in earnest.
I may be the only one present who has actually had a ZF installed in a P6...
The one that I had working (sort of - a long story...) was in an early S1 that had the early P5 type engine mountings. These cause the engine to sit marginally lower than the later, almost universal, P6 type. So there will have been a few extra mm clearance to be had as a result. That rider aside, It went in absolutely fine, only requiring the grinding away of the couple of ribs mentioned earlier around the starter motor area to give clearance against the lower edge of the firewall. That was the only area where there was any hint of a clearance issue.
siSo the first point is that it is easily practicable, but you ought to expect a couple of trial fittings to get the grinding of the ribs just right.
This was with a ZF that had the LDV tailshaft housing. With this housing the rear mount was a matter of simply moving the existing mount arrangement slightly rearwards. I've since seen both Jag and BMW tailshaft housings. The Jag one confuses me as the mount is offset fully to one side and so appears unbalanced. I don't like that and therefore preferred the BMW one. A straightforward mount ought to be easy enough with that set up.
But of course the BMW one doesn't have a mechanical speedo take off. To be honest, that didn't really bother me. It strikes me as easier to mug up a lorry style magnet and sensor off the prop signalling, to a small electric motor driving a very short cable from somewhere under the dash. Check that folks in NZ who do tachograph fitting to trucks have all the parts to fit this up for you. It's standard in the UK but I'd want re-assurance that it was also standard in NZ.
Beyond that the most difficult bit is going to be to have cables made up of the correct length to connect to the P6 kickdown bracket and the P6 gear selector. I imagine some level of dismantling of the box will be necessary to fit these.
Then the P6 gear selector will need its quadrant arm adjusted to replicate the correct throw for the new box. And you will finish up without the ability to manually select and lock first. But I don't think that is a problem worth the aggro of adapting a "foreign" selector to acieve. I've looked carefully at using a Jag one, and the transmission tunnel finisher on the P6 is really too narrow to accomodate. I'm fairly sure the BMW selector is similar. So I'd stick with the existing Borg Warner selector. Off hand I can't remember whether it is the BW35 or BW65 that has cable selection - the other has rods. So at worst you might have to source a selctor of the opposite type.
Hope that moves the discussion forward a little.
Chris
The one that I had working (sort of - a long story...) was in an early S1 that had the early P5 type engine mountings. These cause the engine to sit marginally lower than the later, almost universal, P6 type. So there will have been a few extra mm clearance to be had as a result. That rider aside, It went in absolutely fine, only requiring the grinding away of the couple of ribs mentioned earlier around the starter motor area to give clearance against the lower edge of the firewall. That was the only area where there was any hint of a clearance issue.
siSo the first point is that it is easily practicable, but you ought to expect a couple of trial fittings to get the grinding of the ribs just right.
This was with a ZF that had the LDV tailshaft housing. With this housing the rear mount was a matter of simply moving the existing mount arrangement slightly rearwards. I've since seen both Jag and BMW tailshaft housings. The Jag one confuses me as the mount is offset fully to one side and so appears unbalanced. I don't like that and therefore preferred the BMW one. A straightforward mount ought to be easy enough with that set up.
But of course the BMW one doesn't have a mechanical speedo take off. To be honest, that didn't really bother me. It strikes me as easier to mug up a lorry style magnet and sensor off the prop signalling, to a small electric motor driving a very short cable from somewhere under the dash. Check that folks in NZ who do tachograph fitting to trucks have all the parts to fit this up for you. It's standard in the UK but I'd want re-assurance that it was also standard in NZ.
Beyond that the most difficult bit is going to be to have cables made up of the correct length to connect to the P6 kickdown bracket and the P6 gear selector. I imagine some level of dismantling of the box will be necessary to fit these.
Then the P6 gear selector will need its quadrant arm adjusted to replicate the correct throw for the new box. And you will finish up without the ability to manually select and lock first. But I don't think that is a problem worth the aggro of adapting a "foreign" selector to acieve. I've looked carefully at using a Jag one, and the transmission tunnel finisher on the P6 is really too narrow to accomodate. I'm fairly sure the BMW selector is similar. So I'd stick with the existing Borg Warner selector. Off hand I can't remember whether it is the BW35 or BW65 that has cable selection - the other has rods. So at worst you might have to source a selctor of the opposite type.
Hope that moves the discussion forward a little.
Chris
WarrenL
Active Member
Thanks, Chris. The procedure you describe is pretty much what I expect, including the speedo adapter. There are a number of solutions to that problem, in particular the magnetic pick-up pulse generators you can buy (a Mustang owner I know has one installed), where you simply set the jumpers/program it for pulses per mile/kilometre.
Despite some useful information starting to filter through this thread, I'm leaving a lot of bridges to be crossed when I get to them. For example, the issue of rear mounts, any modifications to the driveshaft and adaptation of the selector. Some things you simply just have to look at for a while, and I can't look at them until I've got the BW out sitting alongside my two ZFs. Being a bush mechanic who barely knows his quadrant selector from his nearside rear shock absorber, I have to quietly digest everything as I go.
Photos will be up later.
Despite some useful information starting to filter through this thread, I'm leaving a lot of bridges to be crossed when I get to them. For example, the issue of rear mounts, any modifications to the driveshaft and adaptation of the selector. Some things you simply just have to look at for a while, and I can't look at them until I've got the BW out sitting alongside my two ZFs. Being a bush mechanic who barely knows his quadrant selector from his nearside rear shock absorber, I have to quietly digest everything as I go.
Photos will be up later.
I did have a crack at this a while ago, installing an LDV type in a parts car to see how it fitted. I had clearance problems with the left hand gearbox mounting ribs and had to cut them away, though this may not be an issue with the shorter bmw tail. The rhs mounts were fine. (just) The plan was to duplicate the lhs mount a couple of inches further back to line up with the rear bolt on the rhs.
The driveshaft will have to be modified. I'm pretty sure the P6 shaft will bolt straight up the the LDV output flange but the shaft will need shortening and if you use a bmw or Jag output, then the driveshaft will need a new front joint to suit.
The BW65 used a cable arrangement and I see no reason why this couldn't be used on the ZF. Worst case scenario, you might not be able to select 1st manually. Not a great loss. I'm pretty sure the actual shifter on the 65 is the same as the 35 but the later cars had a bracket welded to the tunnel just behind the shifter to hold the cable. (cable goes backwards and loops around to the trans)
A lot of this is going to be trial and error but the important thing to remember is: It does fit, people have done it. So it can be done, just needs a bit of patience and maybe a bit of assistance occasionally.
The driveshaft will have to be modified. I'm pretty sure the P6 shaft will bolt straight up the the LDV output flange but the shaft will need shortening and if you use a bmw or Jag output, then the driveshaft will need a new front joint to suit.
The BW65 used a cable arrangement and I see no reason why this couldn't be used on the ZF. Worst case scenario, you might not be able to select 1st manually. Not a great loss. I'm pretty sure the actual shifter on the 65 is the same as the 35 but the later cars had a bracket welded to the tunnel just behind the shifter to hold the cable. (cable goes backwards and loops around to the trans)
A lot of this is going to be trial and error but the important thing to remember is: It does fit, people have done it. So it can be done, just needs a bit of patience and maybe a bit of assistance occasionally.
WarrenL
Active Member
Update!
I'm just back in from the garage, and the 35 is sitting on the floor beside the ZFs. The removal operation was OK, but there were hiccups. I had to remove the exhaust in order to remove the driveshaft. I unhooked the kickdown cable and the inhibitor switch. Next I removed the rear gearbox mount and lowered the rear of the box until I noticed problems in the engine bay. First, I had to remove the fan cowling so that as the front of the engine went up the fan blades didn't foul it. Then I had to disconnect the throttle lever doodad since it was being bent at an acute angle. Next problem was a good one. Despite the workshop manual's glib "drop the rear of the gearbox just enough to allow access from the rear to the gearbox filler hex nut", or words to that effect, in reality the box wouldn't lower enough to give me access to the confounded thing with any tool known to mere mortals, despite many attempts and even a resort to phone-a-friend. In the end I cut my losses and sawed through the pipe with a hacksaw blade. I could finally undo the nuts holding the box to the bell housing (long extension bars poked in from the rear of the lowered gearbox) and slide the gearbox away from the torque converter.
Of course it wasn't as simple as that. The moment the gearbox split away from the bell housing about a half litre of ATF dumped onto the floor of the garage; and you could see it oozing out from around the input shaft. Dirty looking shit too, not a good sign. Big cleanup. Laundry powder concentrate is the best stuff I know for this. Sprinkle it over the puddle of oil, leave for a minute, apply hot water, scrub with a broom, then wash away. Voila! To hell with the environment!
So, I now have three gearboxes sitting in the garage, and a totally useless car. Trouble is, I've run out of old car motivation now and it's going to take the week to build up to tackling the removal of the bell housing, torque converter, etc. This won't be a fast project, but as Al says, there's going to be some finger sucking and general fat chewing while the details are worked out.
I'm just back in from the garage, and the 35 is sitting on the floor beside the ZFs. The removal operation was OK, but there were hiccups. I had to remove the exhaust in order to remove the driveshaft. I unhooked the kickdown cable and the inhibitor switch. Next I removed the rear gearbox mount and lowered the rear of the box until I noticed problems in the engine bay. First, I had to remove the fan cowling so that as the front of the engine went up the fan blades didn't foul it. Then I had to disconnect the throttle lever doodad since it was being bent at an acute angle. Next problem was a good one. Despite the workshop manual's glib "drop the rear of the gearbox just enough to allow access from the rear to the gearbox filler hex nut", or words to that effect, in reality the box wouldn't lower enough to give me access to the confounded thing with any tool known to mere mortals, despite many attempts and even a resort to phone-a-friend. In the end I cut my losses and sawed through the pipe with a hacksaw blade. I could finally undo the nuts holding the box to the bell housing (long extension bars poked in from the rear of the lowered gearbox) and slide the gearbox away from the torque converter.
Of course it wasn't as simple as that. The moment the gearbox split away from the bell housing about a half litre of ATF dumped onto the floor of the garage; and you could see it oozing out from around the input shaft. Dirty looking shit too, not a good sign. Big cleanup. Laundry powder concentrate is the best stuff I know for this. Sprinkle it over the puddle of oil, leave for a minute, apply hot water, scrub with a broom, then wash away. Voila! To hell with the environment!
So, I now have three gearboxes sitting in the garage, and a totally useless car. Trouble is, I've run out of old car motivation now and it's going to take the week to build up to tackling the removal of the bell housing, torque converter, etc. This won't be a fast project, but as Al says, there's going to be some finger sucking and general fat chewing while the details are worked out.
WarrenL
Active Member
Hmm, it might have been a senior moment. I added the link during an edit; maybe I didn't submit the post. Oh well, here it is again:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/ ... prd109.htm
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/ ... prd109.htm
ghce
Well-Known Member
I really don't like the offset rear tail shaft mount that seems to be evident, like Chris say this is just not a good look at all, perhaps a a proper balanced hanger could be fabricated.
Al I cant see why the prop shaft needs shortening, from other photos and comments the box lengths appear to be with in 1/2 and inch of each other? perhaps the BMW joint is longer? can the BW 35 65 joint not be adapted into the tailshaft housing, it certainly looks more compact in length that the BMW counterpart
Graeme
Al I cant see why the prop shaft needs shortening, from other photos and comments the box lengths appear to be with in 1/2 and inch of each other? perhaps the BMW joint is longer? can the BW 35 65 joint not be adapted into the tailshaft housing, it certainly looks more compact in length that the BMW counterpart
Graeme
the propshaft definitely needed shortening when used against the LDV tailhousing - but I obviously can't comment about the Jag or BMW ones. In any case that is smething you can afford to leave until after the box is installed to your satisfaction. Then there are the twin issues of have you got the correct flange to couple to and is there enough movement available in the sliding joint. Do check the alignment before you finalise the rear mountings though - you want the minimum possible angle between the axis of engine and box and the axis of the prop. I would say that is best done by eye!
Chris
Chris
mrtask
Well-Known Member
The owner of a very smart white Series 1 3500 from not-too-far-away Potsdam is, I believe, currently having a 4HP22 fitted to his Rover by a classic car specialist in also-not-all-that-far-away Königs Wusterhausen. I'm given to understand that the garage boss is a P6 owner of many years standing himself. As soon as my car is back on the road, hopefully in the next week or so, I reckon I'll pay the workshop a visit and take a look at the work in progress. WarrenL, would you like me to pass your contact info along to the owner of the white V8 P6? PM me if you like.
eightofthem
Member
ghce said:
If you are unsure about the Jag tail end mount, then you can utilise the rear tail cone fixing bolts, and fabricate a bracket to suit your needs.
The Jag mount although it looks strange, is quite sufficient to use, don't forget the box is secured to the engine block at the front,
So in effect it only has to stop rear side sway and absorb up and down movement.
So long as the mount is secured to a suitably made new mounting bracket, it will do just fine.
The actual length of a Beamer box is only a shade smaller than the BW35, so a spacer shim will be needed to make up the shortfall, unless you want to shell out on a custom prop.
I have plenty of info and pics on these boxes if you need some.
WarrenL
Active Member
Here are some pics from yesterday. Firstly, Brown Rover and Warren assume their customary positions:
This is what happens when the input shaft seal is blown and you pull the box backwards away from the bell housing:
Perhaps half a litre? Anyway, here is the damn thing out, sitting alongside the ZF donor boxes:
Bell housing and torque converter still in situ:
Front of the blown BW; I think you can see the tide mark where all that bloody ATF was sitting. It was oozing out of the interface between the box and bell housing, and the front of the bell housing, but I got a surprise at the amount that dumped on the floor. I can't quite see how it held it all in there.
Finally, for today, the front of the driveshaft and the back of the BMW box. As even the least practically minded person here can figure out, three holes won't match up with four, so something will need to be done. You can see that the setup consists of a big rubber bush that bolts to the back of the Beemer flange. Should I leave it there (it's in good nick), or discard it?
And that's all for now. After a whole day of contorting my 40-something body into all manner of strange positions to undo inaccessible nuts and bolts, I'm stiff and sore this morning, and have decided to spend the day loafing about with my children. Next weekend is another weekend.
This is what happens when the input shaft seal is blown and you pull the box backwards away from the bell housing:
Perhaps half a litre? Anyway, here is the damn thing out, sitting alongside the ZF donor boxes:
Bell housing and torque converter still in situ:
Front of the blown BW; I think you can see the tide mark where all that bloody ATF was sitting. It was oozing out of the interface between the box and bell housing, and the front of the bell housing, but I got a surprise at the amount that dumped on the floor. I can't quite see how it held it all in there.
Finally, for today, the front of the driveshaft and the back of the BMW box. As even the least practically minded person here can figure out, three holes won't match up with four, so something will need to be done. You can see that the setup consists of a big rubber bush that bolts to the back of the Beemer flange. Should I leave it there (it's in good nick), or discard it?
And that's all for now. After a whole day of contorting my 40-something body into all manner of strange positions to undo inaccessible nuts and bolts, I'm stiff and sore this morning, and have decided to spend the day loafing about with my children. Next weekend is another weekend.
WarrenL
Active Member
mrtask said:
Oh for the means to pay somebody else to do this job for me! By the end of yesterday's marathon gearbox removal (a competent person would have done it in a quarter of the time, no doubt), I was really wondering what I'd let myself in for. Especially at the point where I had to concede defeat and cut the filler pipe off with a hacksaw blade, although I notice nobody has growled at me for that. Yet.
Obviously the more knowledge that is shared about the better, so I'm more than happy to have my details passed along. Email address should be in my profile, but PM me if you need more.
Geordie Jim
Member
Warren,
My BMW box has the same output flange as yours, I intend getting a BMW prop and using the front of that and the rear of the Rover. I have access to machining, but will need to get it balanced.
I know of a Garage doing the same for a customer, using an LDV van box and a 3.9 engine. I'll have to check to see if the owner comes to this forum.
With regard to the speedo, I trust Mr York's solution is OK.
My engine and box are ready to go in, need to paint the engine bay and refit it out, with the new power steering....
My BMW box has the same output flange as yours, I intend getting a BMW prop and using the front of that and the rear of the Rover. I have access to machining, but will need to get it balanced.
I know of a Garage doing the same for a customer, using an LDV van box and a 3.9 engine. I'll have to check to see if the owner comes to this forum.
With regard to the speedo, I trust Mr York's solution is OK.
My engine and box are ready to go in, need to paint the engine bay and refit it out, with the new power steering....
The reason you have fluid all over the floor is because you separated the box from the converter. The converter holds several litres of fluid that won't come out when you drain the sump. Standard practice is to unbolt the converter from the flexplate, then separate the bellhousing from the engine. It's heavier but you won't get the spillage. And you will have to fit the converter to the box before you put it back in because aligning them is quite tricky. 