Ideal engine swap...

Just my opinion, ok?

I think, the engine in a Rover P6 2000 is best replaced with a two litre Rover P6 engine, the engine in a Rover P6 2200 with a 2.2 litre Rover P6 engine, and the engine in a 3500 with a 3.5 litre Rover P6 engine.
Anyone who finds the four cylinder insufficient and wants to upgrade to a V8, should sell his car and buy a 3500. Anyone who finds the 3500 insufficient, should sell it and buy a car that is more suitable for his requirements.
 
Junkman said:
Just my opinion, ok?

I think, the engine in a Rover P6 2000 is best replaced with a two litre Rover P6 engine, the engine in a Rover P6 2200 with a 2.2 litre Rover P6 engine, and the engine in a 3500 with a 3.5 litre Rover P6 engine.
Anyone who finds the four cylinder insufficient and wants to upgrade to a V8, should sell his car and buy a 3500. Anyone who finds the 3500 insufficient, should sell it and buy a car that is more suitable for his requirements.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but that shouldn't put off those of us who think that it is possible to upgrade to a bigger/more modern engine without spoiling the car's character - after all, plenty of P6s have 3.9 and 4.6 litre versions of the Rover V8. Most four-cylinder engines lack character and sound largely similar, so I definitely don't see the point of sticking doggedly with the Rover four when it's so underpowered and is stuck with carburation and a 4-speed manual or 3-speed auto gearbox.
 
EccentricRichard said:
Junkman said:
Just my opinion, ok?

I think, the engine in a Rover P6 2000 is best replaced with a two litre Rover P6 engine, the engine in a Rover P6 2200 with a 2.2 litre Rover P6 engine, and the engine in a 3500 with a 3.5 litre Rover P6 engine.
Anyone who finds the four cylinder insufficient and wants to upgrade to a V8, should sell his car and buy a 3500. Anyone who finds the 3500 insufficient, should sell it and buy a car that is more suitable for his requirements.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but that shouldn't put off those of us who think that it is possible to upgrade to a bigger/more modern engine without spoiling the car's character - after all, plenty of P6s have 3.9 and 4.6 litre versions of the Rover V8. Most four-cylinder engines lack character and sound largely similar, so I definitely don't see the point of sticking doggedly with the Rover four when it's so underpowered and is stuck with carburation and a 4-speed manual or 3-speed auto gearbox.
Click to expand...


Hi,

I think it rather depends on your definition of character? You’re now straying into more general grounds here, as classic car owners are we here to preserve the spices warts and all or can we take advantage of modern engineering improvements to, in our eyes anyway, enhance the design? This area is likely to generate quite a diverse range of opinion as luckily everyone is different and sees things from there own point of view.

Personally, and it is only my personal opinion, I’m completely happy with modernising and improving. If you’ve seen any of my posts in the project area you’ll have some idea of what I get up to in my P6 so that won’t be a huge surprise :) I do believe there is a place for the completely standard, but it’s not for me. My cars have always been shabby but sorted, I work on reliability, drivability, performance and then once all that’s done aesthetics, but since I pretty much never satisfied with the first 3 I almost never get to aesthetics bit ;)

Just my 2p’s worth.

Tim
 
Kman1600 said:
I think it rather depends on your definition of character? You’re now straying into more general grounds here, as classic car owners are we here to preserve the spices warts and all or can we take advantage of modern engineering improvements to, in our eyes anyway, enhance the design? This area is likely to generate quite a diverse range of opinion as luckily everyone is different and sees things from there own point of view.

Personally, and it is only my personal opinion, I’m completely happy with modernising and improving. If you’ve seen any of my posts in the project area you’ll have some idea of what I get up to in my P6 so that won’t be a huge surprise :) I do believe there is a place for the completely standard, but it’s not for me. My cars have always been shabby but sorted, I work on reliability, drivability, performance and then once all that’s done aesthetics, but since I pretty much never satisfied with the first 3 I almost never get to aesthetics bit ;)

Just my 2p’s worth.

Tim
Click to expand...

Oh, absolutely. I'm not suggesting that there is any right or wrong here - if someone wants to keep their car stock, fine, but, I'll be honest, I would want to make improvements to pretty much any classic. Why have a 90bhp all-iron engine with a 4-speed manual in a 1200kg+ P6 (which will only do 30mpg tops) if you could get a modern all-aluminium turbocharged four in which would give comparable economy and double the power, not to mention better weight distribution? Even the V8 can be improved so you can get better performance and/or economy.
 
Hi,

It begs the question when is a P6 not a P6 anymore, i.e. how much is too much. We’ll all draw our line in different places; your radical “improvements” may well be seen as an abomination by others.

How much is too much is probably a whole other thread :)

Tim
 
EccentricRichard said:
Why have a 90bhp all-iron engine with a 4-speed manual in a 1200kg+ P6 (which will only do 30mpg tops) if you could get a modern all-aluminium turbocharged four in which would give comparable economy and double the power, not to mention better weight distribution? Even the V8 can be improved so you can get better performance and/or economy.
Click to expand...

Why? I can tell you why. Because having a 90bhp all-iron engine with a 4-speed manual in a 1200kg+ P6 (which will only do 30mpg tops) is preserving national heritage, while kitting it out with a newfangled all-aluminium turbocharged four is destroying the same.
You do not fit triple-glazed PVC windows into a gothic mansion either. You do not re-varnish a Stradivarius.

If you find a car's engine inadequate, then it is not the right car for you. Leave it alone and buy something that suits your requirements better. An original engine is a car's heartbeat, it provides it with its unique character and personality, something which is completely lost with this modern rubbish.

No offense, but I have the impression that the old car hobby is completely lost on you. We preserve these cars not DESPITE their "inadequacies" (read CHARACTER), but BECAUSE of them.
 
I think it all is a matter of degree, yes it may be ruining your cars pure classic status but that is not to say that an engine change is not an improvement, but as say it is all a matter of degree, for example you have 3500 V8 when it comes to engine recon time do you upgrade the cam from factory spec? do you put in a hi flow oil pump? do you replace the factories woeful poor timing gears? maybe fit SD1 heads? and even furthur do you replace the mechanical fuel pump? all very minor stuff but is it the thin end of the proverbial wedge when it come to maintaining national heritage were that the case 3/4 of the posts on this forum would not exist. To me it is very clear, if you want a concourse winning car it should be just that factory standard all the way but for most of us who just want a good daily reliable drive then some modifications are a must to acheive that goal, if you want both then do what many others have done in the past and buy a second (3rd or 4th even) P6 and mod to your hearts desire (or your pocket books).

Graeme
 
Junkman said:
EccentricRichard said:
Why have a 90bhp all-iron engine with a 4-speed manual in a 1200kg+ P6 (which will only do 30mpg tops) if you could get a modern all-aluminium turbocharged four in which would give comparable economy and double the power, not to mention better weight distribution? Even the V8 can be improved so you can get better performance and/or economy.
Click to expand...

Why? I can tell you why. Because having a 90bhp all-iron engine with a 4-speed manual in a 1200kg+ P6 (which will only do 30mpg tops) is preserving national heritage, while kitting it out with a newfangled all-aluminium turbocharged four is destroying the same.
You do not fit triple-glazed PVC windows into a gothic mansion either. You do not re-varnish a Stradivarius.

If you find a car's engine inadequate, then it is not the right car for you. Leave it alone and buy something that suits your requirements better. An original engine is a car's heartbeat, it provides it with its unique character and personality, something which is completely lost with this modern rubbish.

No offense, but I have the impression that the old car hobby is completely lost on you. We preserve these cars not DESPITE their "inadequacies" (read CHARACTER), but BECAUSE of them.
Click to expand...


Here here!

I always look to improve the existing components as best I can using modern methods and materials where appropriate but I wouldn't put a modern turbo-charged engine in my car. For a start, I wouldn't have a clue where to start if things went wrong. One of the reasons why I now drive a normally aspirated, carburettor engined car :D

Each to his/her own I guess. I marvel at the technological advancements in modern motoring and if someone gave me a nice Mercedes, BMW, Jag etc then I'd happily drive it around until it broke. However, on my limited budget I made a conscious choice to buy a P6 as my daily car, fully aware that it would be 30+ years old, worn in a few places, return sub 30mpg, be noisy and not be as powerful as most modern 4 cylinder hatchbacks.......and I love it :D

Dave
 
Hi,

You’ve certainly, and very eloquently, put one case for one facet of the classic car hobby and that is without doubt an important one.

I’m an engineer, both by education and by my internal make-up, and thus I can’t look at something that can be simply sorted by modern means and leave it standard just to keep it standard. Again it’s about where you draw your lines, at it’s simplest level do you use modern oils etc… with enhanced properties that prolong the life of your engine or do you stick rigidly to 40 year old blends, do you fit breaker less ignition, modern lights, modern tyres, alternators where dynamos were, seat belts in the back etc…

I personally think that these cars are here to be used and I do use mine, some would I’m sure say abuse but again each to there own. If it was the last of its breed, if there weren’t museums stuffed with static perfectly standard examples I’d feel more of a need to preserve it.

Don’t get me wrong, I think you perseveration at all cost approach is laudable and has its place but we are not all the same.

I do however agree that if you want all the function, comfort, economy, etc…. of a modern then you should probably buy a modern car ;)

Tim
 
I am happy with Sparky's mods, but then he does have a Rover V8 engine (albeit a more powerful one), he does have electronic ignition from a later model Rover (SD1), he does have alloy wheels again from an SD1, he does have a 5 speed gerarbox (SD1), and he has a few other mods including uprated cam, weber carb, stainless custom built exhaust, brake discs, anti roll bar, etc.

I will however draw my line at fitting engines which were not made by Rover/Leyland, especially japanese ones.

Fitting a roll bar which stops the dreaded lurching into corners is a godsend, brilliant piece of kit. Making up a custom exhaust which looks like the original but is a larger bore with straight through boxes, doesn't distract from the look of the car.

I had quite a few SD1 mods on my last P6 back in the 80s so as far as I am concerned, they are period mods.

Funnily enough I would never put fuel injection onto a P6. There was one at Rugeley on Sunday which was very nicely done but not my cup of tea.

This is really down to what the owner is happy with.

Richard
 
quattro said:
Funnily enough I would never put fuel injection onto a P6. There was one at Rugeley on Sunday which was very nicely done but not my cup of tea.
Click to expand...

Didn't it sound good as the owner powered away up the hill :D

Dave
 
Sorry chaps, I possibly went a tad overboard. Albeit I personally despise everything modern, it is certainly not unacceptable to modify an old car with the odd contemporary garment. Whether it's an improvement is something I'm happy to debate, but each to their own.
Trust me, in almost 30 years of active motorsport, I have done my share of mods, built numerous cars from scratch, and this includes several hot rods for road use.

However, I drive my completely stock Rover as a daily driver, in fact, I do not have another daily driver. I cannot find all these things, which are so commonly uprated, inadequate or unreliable in any way. To the contrary, I'm impressed how reliable, sturdy and strong the car is and what abuse it can take without blinking an eyelid. I also find it extremely low maintenance for a car of its era. It is a joy to drive, decidedly vintage, and it is definitely not struggling to keep up with traffic. To the contrary. Those newfangled eyesores which are cluttering our roads are constantly holding me up. Petrol consuption. Well, my Rover needs less than 1200 litres of petrol per year, so I don't see the necessity for any improvement in this area. I find the car extremely comfortable and the handling more than adequate and -what's most important for me- predictable, because I lack a bit in the driving skill department. But even I can drift it almost subconciously when things get twisty, how better natured could a car possibly handle?
We all know that the Rover P6 never was intended to be a sports saloon. It is a cruiser befitting the gentleman driver. This is what it is meant to be. New car buyers bought it because of this and because it was expensive and signalled to the rest that they have exquisite taste and the format and style not to show it off with superficial bling bling or revving it at a red light with furry dice dangling from the rear view mirror. I bought it because I always wanted one for those very reasons and then much to my own surprise found out, that it is befitting me like a tailor made suit. As if they had me in mind when they designed it.

Hence I find it rather tiresome and leaden when someone constantly goes on about what he considers inadequacies, which in fact are exactly the things which make a Rover P6 what I want it to be, and suggests alterations which are clearly aimed at building something the car never was intended to be and likely will not be even with these mods carried out. To top it off, it is subsequently not even DONE, or do I miss the posts where this uber-P6 is being built and the progress shown?

Gadzooks, I thought this is 'The Classic Rover Forum' and not 'Fast P6' or 'P6 Lacks Power' or 'how to remove sweat stains from your seatbacks'.
 
Hi Junkman,

I too have no personal interest in the “wouldn’t it be great to fit…….” type posts and I therefore I’m very unlikely to post to one but I can see the attraction of a bit of wishfully thinking. There are however some excellent threads on here showing real progress and real results on real cars.

I have also not found really any of the unreliability issues highlighted here and there on the forum, I still run points for example. In fact as you point out I find it's durability is remarkable.

I compete in Historic road rallies in my car, which I see as period appropriate use, these are rallies as they would have been run in the 60/70s, before the advent of modern stage rallying. What you typically see on TV (if you see any) is modern stages rallies in old cars, a very different sport. Even though the events I do can be rather Autotest based the P6, with some development, is a surprisingly competitive car and certainly is an interesting alternative to the MK.1 Escorts, Minis, Midgets, etc….. that normally compete on these.

What motorsport did you do for 30 years?

Tim
 
Preparing a car for motorsport is a completely different ball game. I even like the P6 touring car builds and am toying with the idea myself. I'd start with a total rot box from the scrapyard though, considering all the mods I'd like to do.

I started with rally with what started as an Opel Commodore 2.8 GS/E, then moved on to Special Touring Car Trophy, first with what once was a 68 Camaro, then a highly modified 69 Corvette, then moved on to Stockcar F1 in what started as 30 yards of steel tubing. In between I did my share of rallycross in what once was a BTC Holden Commodore. I participated in the La Carrera twice, once with what was left of a 56 Lincoln Capri, the other time with a pure race car in a Studebaker shell. I also co-campaigned a Top Fuel Funnycar for a few years and am currently working on a comeback in that sport.
 
Hi,

My car was indeed saved from the scrap man, a friend of mine asked me to help him clear a store of old cars he’d gathered up over the years genuinely believing that one day he’d have the time and money. On realising that day was unlikely to come he had a clear out. Some cars were more desirable or rare so found homes quickly the stragglers were unfortunately destined to just be weighed in. I was there to help with the towing but when we loaded up the P6 I took it home instead :)

Almost all my motorsport history is road based, started road rallies back in 84. These we’re night navigation events in Northern Ireland but still out and out open road races in England, I did a couple over there before they also went the way of night nav. in about 86. I had a brief flirtation with Sprints and Hillcimbs in the mid 2000’s before choosing this Historic Road rally direction about a year ago now.

Prep of the car is slightly controlled, things are essentially to be kept “period” but some interpret the rules looser than others. My car has quite a bit done, mostly aimed at reliability, and is certainly not just some old wreck that I horse around in ;) although I’ll admit it looks a wee bit like that :)

Your motorsport history sounds very interesting indeed!!!

Tim
 
I'm a modifier at heart, I suspect that even if I bought a brand new car and picked all the appropriate options, I'd still need to modify it, that's just me.

When I bought my first P6 I didn't even know what it was (or care for that matter), I was looking for a car to cut the roof off, and saw a P6 in a garage for sale and noticed that it had almost ideal lines for the job, so I bought it. Judging by the state of the base unit it's next stop would have been the scrap yard !

I can fully appreciate the standard cars, and how hard it is to keep one totally standard, I'm not sure there are actually that many totally standard P6's out there, most have had some form of modification, even down to the "gloss" inner wings that seem very common, or polished SU's

I do prefer to see modified cars at shows, once you've seen one standard one, you've seen them all, but every modified is slightly different and it's really interesting to see each owners take on what they prefer.

That's my opinion anyway ! :LOL:
 
I guess it depends how much you use it, very easy if it stays in a nice warm garage, but a daily driven car will inevitably need welding, bodywork, exhausts, etc... and it can be very hard (and expensive) to get original parts for some jobs.
 
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