Re: P6 project: BW35 to LT77 manual box swap: the verdict

Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

LeeEFI wrote,...
Hi Ron,
I think you might've got that wrong about the 14-bolt 3.9 cyl' heads? The Rover Vitesse cyl' heads had the valve stems waisted just behind the valve heads. Whereas the 3.9 cyl' heads had standard inlet valves (the same as a non-Vitesse SD1), but the exhaust valves had exhaust gas anti-reversion steps behind the valve head.

I beleive the 10-bolt 4.0/4.6-litre cyl' heads had the Vitesse type valves, but just on the inlets.

Sorry to be anal about this, but I know how you like to get these things correct Info source: The Rover V8 Engine by David Hardcastle.
Click to expand...

Hi Lee,

I have had a search and found this from Des Hammill's text "How to Power Tune Rover V8 Engines" published 2005.

"While the Vitesse engines introduced in 1982 only were fitted with waisted stem inlet valves, these inlet valves became standard in all engines from the introduction of the 3.9 litre engine in October 1989 and on all subsequent Rover V8 engines"

Ron.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

It gets better :roll: , having had time to study and think about the supposed pinking, I think it now sounds more metallic :( I'm certain it wasn't there upon first start up but has got worse in the 130 miles its covered in say 10 days.

From cold, the metallic tapping/ rattle noise is very loud on choke and sounds like its coming from the right hand cylinder head, once the engine has reached operating temp, the noise is definitely quieter, but still there under a load like going up a hill. I had my father (ex naval royal engineer & old school car enthusiast) have a listen and agrees its metallic, not pinking. Oil pressure is excellent as it should be from a recon short block.

B*gger b*gger b*gger, so I've removed the rocker covers & assemblies but can see no obvious signs of mishap, I know its hard to see & tell visually so next step is head removal and inspection on heads & engine block. The heads are the 3.9 from good old ebay, supposedly rebuilt, but who knows, they were given a mild skim, all I have done is re-lap the valves and fit crap valve guide seals. hence the puff of blue smoke upon warm start up.
any ideas much appreciated, many thanks Damian.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

I am sorry to hear this Damian. When you changed the camshaft, did you fit a complete set of new lifters too? Are the rocker assemblies and pushrods also new and if not, which parts are you reusing?

Ron.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

hows the oil looking? If it's looking ropey it could just need changing?
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi Ron, how you going?

In September 2010 I did a top end rebuild including uprated timing chain & gears, 3.5 camshaft, lifters, push rods, rockers & rocker arms, all new.

This only covered about 1500~2000 miles if that in just under three years, So I've only changed the cam shaft for this rebuild for the 3.9 version.

I inspected all 16 lifters, all had the same ware/running pattern with no obvious uneven ware on either lifter, you could tell they were spinning nicely during operation.

Was this a boo boo perhaps?
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi rock demon, oil still looks fresh mate, I'm praying its the head, I still have the SD1 heads so if these ebay 3.9 ones are duff then I'll swap then over, with new hooded uprated valve guide seals :wink:
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

just read your reply to ron - you're meant to change the lifters and the cam as a pair as they wear together and cant be swapped around. really hope it's not that though ...
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Yeah I know your supposed to change all out, I took chance as there was no ware on the lifters, thing is though after 100 miles I'm sure it would have hardly had chance to wear out unevenly, or im clutching at straws :oops:
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

DamianZ28 wrote,...
Yeah I know your supposed to change all out, I took chance as there was no ware on the lifters, thing is though after 100 miles I'm sure it would have hardly had chance to wear out unevenly, or im clutching at straws :oops:
Click to expand...

That is almost certainly where the problem is Damian. Used lifters won't bed into a new cam, they chew the lobes of instead. Won't take long to ruin the camshaft as the noise would seem to indicate.

Fit a new camshaft, lifters, pushrods and timing set if you haven't changed the OEM set with their nylon teeth already. How old are the rocker assemblies?

Ron.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

DamianZ28 said:
Hi rock demon, oil still looks fresh mate, I'm praying its the head, I still have the SD1 heads so if these ebay 3.9 ones are duff then I'll swap then over, with new hooded uprated valve guide seals :wink:
Click to expand...

Get a drop of oil off the dip stick and rub it between your fingers - if it's gritty then that's the metallic particles from bedding the new cam in and needs changing.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi Ron,

In September 2010 I did a top end rebuild including uprated timing chain & gears, 3.5 camshaft, lifters, push rods, rockers & rocker arms, all new.
These have only covered about 1500~2000 miles in just under three years.

I need to pull it al apart, manifold first to take a look inside, I did think it may be head gasket failure between the bores, hence blue smoke upon warm start up and the noise disappearing once the engine was hot.
If some of the lobes have worn on the cam due to irregular ware on the older lifters then the noise would be worse when hot and not get quieter when warmer, this was the case when I first bought the car as the original cam was almost rounded, its on the first few pages of this thread, anyway strip down is the only to see & pin point.

Thanks for all your feed back guys, I'll let you know the results. Damian
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi Paul,


Yes I'll do that check, one thing I noticed is the new 3.9 cam had was thinly coated on the lobes in black, you can see it on page 31, from memory back in sept 2010 when I replaced the original cam with new 3.5 (page 1) there was no coating.

I wonder if this has any bearing onthe unwanted noise...oh what fun! :)
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Sorry one other thought guys, if I have chewed up some the lobes on the new cam then surley the noise would be there on start up & not under a load, also be worse once the engine was warm & not when the oil was cold.

This nosie seems to quieten once the engine is hot but still just there when under load.

I only say as when I originally did the top end rebuild in sept 2010, the engine was fairly quiet on start up but once at running temp it sounded like a diesel.

Again all will clear once I remove the inlet manifold and heads.

Thanks Damian
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi Damian,

If the noise was there and you had fitted new lifters at the same time, then I'd be wondering what it could be too. Seeing though that you have resused lifters with the new camshaft, the noise is very likely coming from there. The reason to run the camshaft in is so that the lifters and lobes work harden together. They form a close bond so that each lobe and lifter function as a pair. Another point to be aware of is when you run a camshaft in, you must vary the engine revs between say 2000 and 2500 rpm constantly. Don't let it just sit at the one rpm point for minutes at a time, instead have it fluctuating constantly.

Still, once you have the manifold off, you'll see for sure.

Ron.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi ,

Yeah that has also crossed my mind, although they were new composite versions and I've only covered 130miles in 10 days.
I could not see the word 'TOP' on the new gaskets though, previous bought composite ones have the 'TOP' clearly marked but not these version i used, maybe have tuned out to be a shite version that have crapped themsevles.
Did you use new composite gaskets and did that fix the problem?

Thanks for you input!

Cheers Damian
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

When I built the enginer I used composite gaskets from.... wait for it.... Britpart (Waits for the screams from the audience). They looked well made and identical to other gaskets i had seen. These lasted the best part of 5 years and easily 40-50,000 miles I reckon. They must have gone gradually as the problem slowly got worse and worse.

I then ordered new gaskets (again Britpart) but this time they did not seem the same as before. The first set had a dull almost cross hatched appearance and had the word "TOP" clearly visible. The new ones were of a shiny, almost rubber like material and had no "TOP" stamped on them.

I fitted those and they didnt even hold water when the engine was cold and first topped off with coolant! Argh!

I then ordered a new set of Elring gaskets and they arrived and were fitted, no problems then or since.

Interestingly the Elring gaskets look like my first Britpart ones did. I guess they may have been supplied by Elring and they either changed supplier or spec since.

Hope this helps
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi Damian

I've just caught up with this thread from a week or so back. And I thought your work looked absolutely cracking then. Sorry to hear this news.

I agree with Ron and others that the most likely source for a mechanical tap is a failure of a cam lobe and lifter to live together. So don't go stripping the heads just yet! "Just" have the valley gasket off so that you can inspect the cam. If all apears well - and it should be pretty obvious - then perhaps one of the lifters is struggling to inflate sufficiently, so that you are listening to good old fashioned tappet noise from a loose valve train. That could be due to a suddenly unwell lifter, to a worn pushrod or to a worn rocker - or just perhaps from not having set the preload to accomodate new gasket and head heights.

If you eliminate all of those and then move on to having the heads off, at least you'll be able to replace them without torquing up the outer studs - the 20 lb ft setting is really simply meant to represent a loose nip to stop everything coming apart. All you're trying to achieve is to fill the holes up!

But if you did have the heads off, I'd lay money you won't find anything, cos the noise you describe, if not in the valve train, is most likely to be a ring pack or perhaps little end fault. That would be affected by engine load, and I do agree it seems unlikely that the valve gear would be.

As an aside, why did you choose to change the cam? My own observation is that the 3.5 cam is much better suited to a passenger car than the 3.9. The latter is brilliant for a 4X4 wanting low end torque, but it does cut the top end off a bit when compared to the 3.5.

Keep us posted! And best of luck!

Chris

PS

The needles in your carbs are absoutely certain to be wrong for this engine configuration and to be way too weak at anything above medium throttle. But I would run the engine in first on these needles. Then see if you can save up enough to go and get both timing and needles sorted properly on a competent rolling road. Your nearest is Pitstop at Brize Norton who understand SU's extremely well indeed.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

SydneyRoverP6B said:
Hi Lee,

I have had a search and found this from Des Hammill's text "How to Power Tune Rover V8 Engines" published 2005.

"While the Vitesse engines introduced in 1982 only were fitted with waisted stem inlet valves, these inlet valves became standard in all engines from the introduction of the 3.9 litre engine in October 1989 and on all subsequent Rover V8 engines"

Ron.
Click to expand...

Hi Ron,
Thanks for checking up on that, and letting me know :wink: . Although I had a pair of 3.9 cyl' heads in the garage, I didn't really want to start taking out the valves, as the heads are going back on my V8 at some stage :) The D. Hardcastle book goes into detail about the exhaust valves for the 3.9, but no mention of the waisted inlets. I suppose there's only so much an author can write-up.
 
Re: P6 V8 project: Engine upgrade finished! :)

Hi guys,

Thanks for your input Chris, removed mainfold, no obvious cam lobe melt down or lifters, so removed O/S head and yes plenty of play in each piston at TDC and worse the lower it goes in the bore..'fu*k it' sprang to mind :cry:
Piston slap was the awfull mechanical painfull noise.

So engine out, strip & put all the bits back on to the old block, which had no play at all, engine back in & running by say next week, MOT on the 18th! and car show 25th~26th...Have emailed the company who I bought it from so see how it all turns out. It needs a rebore with new pistons & rings, mine had new rings only with bores honed out using old pistons.
Hey ho! least I can have back on the road in under two weeks so I can enjoy the summer, oh and least it looks clean with new painted bits 8)

Cheers Damian
 
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